Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth

[AOS9001]

Paliputra was more important in 600 AD then Calcutta ever was, even up to this date. Its a holy city that should also be where Hinduism and Buddhism are founded in the 600 AD scenario. In fact I would have it so that Paliputra is where the Indians first spawn in 3000 BC start, it makes A LOT more sense IMO. I've done it before, added one/two more resources around it, and it was a great Indian city. I would highly recommend Leoreth to try it out.

Guess I need to read more Indian history. I've just heard Calcutta mentioned much more often in history than Paliputra. Also, wasn't aware Buddhism had a holy city in the real world, but you do need one in game.

 

[kairob]

It was more important in 600ad, I'll grant you, and Calcutta was not important until later either. However it is not more important now and hasn't been ever since it got burned down by Muslim raiders in the 12th century. Patna, which was built on its ruins is still important, but that is not the same city.

Also, AOS9001, your right Buddhism doesn't really have a holy city. However Pataliputra is very close to Nepal where the Buddha was born and had a lot of Buddhist monasteries so its as good a place as any outside Lhasa.

 

[Sikandar]

For 3000 BC the Indians should spawn in Harappa.

 

[kairob]

deleted

 

[J. pride]

For 3000 BC the Indians should spawn in Harappa.

Harrapa does not equal India.

*Timur's successors more like it...

mmm... I don't know if Leoreth wants to do all that work though, thats my only concern. He has/should have a lot on his mind, and I personally believe a generic Muslim Indian state will do fine, anything to fill up at least Northern and sometimes Central India. You could then name it the "Mughal Dynasty" or "Delhi Sultanate", depending on how much land they own.

I think the best thing to do would be to have represent all the Afghan Muslim states that conquered India under one generic civ; these would include the Ghorids, Delihi Sultanate and the Mughals. So here are all the details:

Minor "Indian" Islamic Civ
Start: 1000 ad
Civs Included: Ghurids, Delhi Sultanate, Mughals, Pakistan
Citiy Spawns and Flips:
Herat 1000 ad
Lahore 1100 ad
Delhi 1200 ad
Patna 1300 ad
Calcutta 1500 ad
Hyderabad 1600 ad

We can ensure the decline of this "Mughal Civ" by having a British conquerers event in the 1700s. Then India can spawn as a British vassal in 1850 or 1940; and if the Mughal cities in afghanistan and Pakistan still survive in by that timeperiod we can rename them into Pakistan.

The other option is to have a full fledged Mughal Civilization; which im not too fond of considering the short timeperiod and the changing borders fo the region.

 

[Orka]

For 3000 BC the Indians should spawn in Harappa.

India doesn't spawn in Harappa because, besides the fact that the city of Harappa doesn't exist anymore, in the grand scheme of Indian civilization the city/location simply aren't important enough. I think this should be the way it is in RFC. For the same reason, China doesn't spawn in Anyang.

I think I understand now the motivation behind buffing India. Especially with buffing the indies in 600AD. However, I think resource buffs should be done with care. While it's no doubt economically historical to buff India, I think that the subcontinent is rather weak pre-Biology for good gameplay reason. Politically/culturally historically, India has tended to be divided, only partially united for relatively short periods. However, in RFC it's represented as one unit, so to better represent the internal strife that prevented it from exerting its full (economic) might the region had to be weakened. So I'd be careful with any resource buffs for balance reasons.

 

[Sikandar]

Harrapa does not equal India.

Uhh...yes it does. That's like saying Bronze Age China doesn't equal China.

Harappa was part of Bronze Age India.

 

[J. pride]

Uhh...yes it does. That's like saying Bronze Age China doesn't equal China.

Harappa was part of Bronze Age India.

Besides the fact that the city does not exist, lets consider what u are saying.

1) We dont know anything about the language or the religion of the Indus Valley Civilization; let alone their culture so i dont know how anybody can pass a judgement if it is related to that modern India.

2) Harappa is not located in Present Day India; Bronze age China was located in Modern day China.

3) Moving the Indian spawn location that much north will mean that they will expand westwards which will not only cause problem for the Indians but also for the Persian and all the civs that come afterwards.

5) What importance does Harappa hold for present day India?; Pataliputra on the other hand is the birthplace of Hinduism and was the capital of several of the greatest Indian Empires in history.

 

[civ_king]

Really? Wow, this just goes to show how powerful India really was. And having an Indian Muslim state spawn in the 12th century as the Sultanate of Delhi or in the 13th century as the Mughals would be great!

Pliny the Elder was flipping at the insane amount of gold moving out of the Republic, IIRC it was about 7,300kg per year

India doesn't spawn in Harappa because, besides the fact that the city of Harappa doesn't exist anymore, in the grand scheme of Indian civilization the city/location simply aren't important enough. I think this should be the way it is in RFC. For the same reason, China doesn't spawn in Anyang.

I think I understand now the motivation behind buffing India. Especially with buffing the indies in 600AD. However, I think resource buffs should be done with care. While it's no doubt economically historical to buff India, I think that the subcontinent is rather weak pre-Biology for good gameplay reason. Politically/culturally historically, India has tended to be divided, only partially united for relatively short periods. However, in RFC it's represented as one unit, so to better represent the internal strife that prevented it from exerting its full (economic) might the region had to be weakened. So I'd be careful with any resource buffs for balance reasons.

According to economic historian Angus Maddison in his book The World Economy: A Millennial Perspective, India had the world's largest economy from the first to 11th century, and in the 18th century, with a (32.9%) share of world GDP in the 1st century to (28.9%) in 1000 AD, and in 1700 AD with (24.4%)

India should be buffed, massively. Maybe we could prevent India from becoming OP by having two civs there.

 

[J. pride]

India should be buffed, massively. Maybe we could prevent India from becoming OP by having two civs there.

The only thing that makes sense is to have a Mughal civ that turns into Pakistan-Afghanistan during modern era

What do u think of the my idea for the Mughals^

 

[civ_king]

The only thing that makes sense is to have a Mughal civ that turns into Pakistan-Afghanistan during modern era

What do u think of the my idea for the Mughals^

I think it is a good idea, however if we are going to have twice the civs we really need to boost resources. Also have it spawn as the Delhi Sultanate.

 

[J. pride]

I think it is a good idea, however if we are going to have twice the civs we really need to boost resources

Do elaborate; how many, where and which resources should be placed.

Btw, How many people would like a playable Ghurid/Mughal/Afghan civ

 

[civ_king]

Do elaborate; how many, where and which resources should be placed.

Btw, How many people would like a playable Ghurid/Mughal/Afghan civ

If you could post a map of India with current resources in place it would greatly assist me it showing you

For resources I'd add
Gems (Kollur Mine, you have heard of Hope Diamond right?)
Gold (Kolar gold fields, mined over seven thousand years)
Iron in Southern Eastern India, wootz steel
Several Cotton in India (major producer)
Iron in SW India (truly massive deposits)

 

[Sikandar]

Besides the fact that the city does not exist, lets consider what u are saying.

1) We dont know anything about the language or the religion of the Indus Valley Civilization; let alone their culture so i dont know how anybody can pass a judgement if it is related to that modern India.

2) Harappa is not located in Present Day India; Bronze age China was located in Modern day China.

3) Moving the Indian spawn location that much north will mean that they will expand westwards which will not only cause problem for the Indians but also for the Persian and all the civs that come afterwards.

5) What importance does Harappa hold for present day India?; Pataliputra on the other hand is the birthplace of Hinduism and was the capital of several of the greatest Indian Empires in history.

Pataliputra didn't exist in 3000 BC.

That's the problem I have with it.

That's also the problem I have with Rhye putting Babylon in as a 3000 BC spawn at all. If anything it should be the Sumerians. I like historical accuracy.

 

[The Turk]

Pataliputra didn't exist in 3000 BC.

That's the problem I have with it.

That's also the problem I have with Rhye putting Babylon in as a 3000 BC spawn at all. If anything it should be the Sumerians. I like historical accuracy.

Nor did Delhi, Beijing (or Xi'an) or Luxor exist in 3000 BC, your point is? My point of having the Indian spawn at Patilputra is because its the most accurate. Harrapan civilization won't work since its too too close to the Persians, and it would look wrong if they expand into Persia (which the AI WILL do) and to the rest of India. So... if anything you could have the Indians spawn later as the Mauryans at Patilputra, or we can just suck it up and have them spawn in Patilputra. Thats my view at least. I'm not saying I don't like your idea Sikandar, but we need to be realistic, RFC (and Civ4 in general) has severe game limitations that we cannot ignore.

As for the Mughals, I want to hear what Leoreth has to say, so I hope he comments soon, but I can tell you that he's 'probably' going to want to just have a repawing Muslim India, that collapses when the British arrive, and then respawns in the mid 20th century as a Hindu civilization. Also we should give room for the Portuguese/Dutch/French to also take one/two cities in India, a very credible reality for the sub-continent.

 

[Leoreth]

I was actually more in favor of Varanasi instead of Pataliputra for a moved Indian spawn.

It's older and has relevance as a holy city for both Hinduism and Buddhism. Pataliputra seems to be more relevant politically, but much younger. Maybe someone who knows India better than me can elaborate a little.

 

[BenZL43]

I understand a bit about Indian history. With help of Wikipedia, ofc

Varanasi is one of the holiest cities and targets of pilgrimage for [B
]Hindus[/B]. As the place where Siddhārtha Gautama gave his first sermon to his disciples, Varanasi is the city where Buddhism was founded. It is the birthplace of Suparshvanath, Shreyansanath, and Parshva, who are respectively the seventh, eleventh, and twenty-third Jain Tirthankars and as such Varanasi is a holy city for Jains.

Pataliputra was the capital of ancient kingdom of Magadha, the Nandas, Mauryans, Sungas and the Guptas down to the Palas. During the reign of Emperor Asoka in the 3rd century BCE, it was one of the world's largest cities, with a population of 150,000-300,000. Pataliputra reached the pinnacle of prosperity when it was the capital of the great Mauryan Emperors, Chandragupta Maurya and Ashoka the Great

So, I could conclude the importance of these cities to ancient India is..

Varanasi serves as 'religion headquarters' while Pataliputra serves as 'administrative or political' capital

More, I got a question that's nothing related to the India...

why Maya spawn so late?
In their own calendar, the Mesoamerican Long Count, they noted that they existed equivalent to 11 August, 3114 BC. Though the accepted history is around 1800BC...

If Rhye's looking for elegance, 4 Civs at starts for each 3000BC and 600BC,
I think the better combination is Babylonia-Maya-China-Egypt while we can postponed India spawn to around the Mauryan Empire period (Which is also coincidence to our LH, the Mauryan emperor, Ashoka).. Instead, we could add Harrapa as independent cities to represent IVC, as Shush represent Elamite Empire or Yerushalayim for the Hebrew...

And I believe Harappa will already destroyed by the upcoming Aryan Barbarians so why shouldn't we add Harappa? It solve the problem to represent IVC as well

 

[hoplitejoe]

why Maya spawn so late?
In their own calendar, the Mesoamerican Long Count, they noted that they existed equivalent to 11 August, 3114 BC. Though the accepted history is around 1800BC...

All the things i have seen point towards the current mayan spawn date. although i don't doubt that they existed for a long time prior to there spawn date this is more as a minor tribe.

 

[The Turk]

I was actually more in favor of Varanasi instead of Pataliputra for a moved Indian spawn.

It's older and has relevance as a holy city for both Hinduism and Buddhism. Pataliputra seems to be more relevant politically, but much younger. Maybe someone who knows India better than me can elaborate a little.

Actually thats an interesting idea, Varanasi could also work. But the capital of the Mauryans and Gupta and several civilizations after that had Pataliputra as their capital. Varanasi could be an independent cities that flips, or it could be a city that it present in the 600 AD start that is the Holy City of Buddhism and Hinduism, but overall Pataliputra should definitely be present, with a late spawning independent Delhi, perhaps preplaced in the 600 AD start.

Oh, and the Harrapan's did not last too long, nor did they expand too far. If Rhye wanted them playable, he would extended the Indus Valley, currently its too small, and won't accommodate them.

And finally the Mayans did not exist in 3000 AD, they reached their zenith around the 7 century AD (if memory serves well....)

 

[BenZL43]

All the things i have seen point towards the current mayan spawn date. although i don't doubt that they existed for a long time prior to there spawn date this is more as a minor tribe.

Nah, it looks minor because they don't matter that much to the European. Actually, they are one of the biggest pre-Columbian civilization in America.. and they developed writing system. Good astronomy...

Though in game, they only represent small teritorry, usually built either Yax Mutal and Chich'en Itza or Yax Mutal and Huaxyacac, and most likely to be collapsed by the arrival of Barbarian Jaguar or Dog Soldier stack...

@The Turk

Well.. rather than having India starts at 3000BC..
Remember when you suggest about the 3 turns and Leoreth said he want to preserve the elegance or whatever for having 4 Civs at the beggining? And about Arabian people who was already there before 632AD, but reach the height way after?
Mayan people was already there.. around 1800BC is 'accepted history' based on what archeologist had found.. but their native calendar had marks their civilization is started on 3114BC They knew about their history better than archeologist might recover, right?
It was preclassic Maya, with cities like Kaminaljuyu, Nakbe and such
They could represent the previous Zapotec or Olmec civilization as well, if starting from 3000BC with Writing is non-sense