Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth

[Leoreth]

Vijayanagara was pretty inconsequential. Medieval India was a bunch of smaller states that don't warrant a civ, no way to change that

SVN doesn't update because I haven't committed yet, which I already said above.

 

[Linkman226]

Nice job!

 

[Sopbucket]

Awesome Mod! I just downloaded it a few days ago, and so far I've played through two half games as Babylon and India, while trying to catch up on the conversation here.

Hope you don't mind me bringing up something from a long time ago

I'm also unhappy with Babylon's current UP (they don't get to make use of it often), but don't have any idea what to give them instead. Any suggestions?

While we're at it, I'm currently wondering if I should give India's UP to France ("Power of Revolutions"), but can't think of a replacement for them either. Ideas?

In game, it told me that Babylon's UP had been changed so that you get the old Bureaucracy benefit for free after researching Code of Laws, which is awesome and probably overpowered, but it didn't happen in my game. Unfortunately, I never invaded a city, so I don't know if the old UP still applied. I haven't been able to find any discussion about this, so I was wondering what the status was on this feature. Is it bugged? Has it been scrapped, but the text wasn't changed?

As for India, I have an idea for an alternative UP:
All religions in a city give +1 culture, even if you have a different state religion. Religions in a city do not add to negative stability.

Seems like religious tolerance fits in well with India, and this would help support some of India's natural advantages.

 

[Leoreth]

Awesome Mod! I just downloaded it a few days ago, and so far I've played through two half games as Babylon and India, while trying to catch up on the conversation here.

Good to hear. I know it's hard keeping up with all these ideas floating around

Hope you don't mind me bringing up something from a long time ago

In game, it told me that Babylon's UP had been changed so that you get the old Bureaucracy benefit for free after researching Code of Laws, which is awesome and probably overpowered, but it didn't happen in my game. Unfortunately, I never invaded a city, so I don't know if the old UP still applied. I haven't been able to find any discussion about this, so I was wondering what the status was on this feature. Is it bugged? Has it been scrapped, but the text wasn't changed?

As for India, I have an idea for an alternative UP:
All religions in a city give +1 culture, even if you have a different state religion. Religions in a city do not add to negative stability.

Seems like religious tolerance fits in well with India, and this would help support some of India's natural advantages.

Your last assumption is the right one. I implemented the new Babylonian UP and disabled the old one, but then it turned out that it was quite overpowered and AI Babylonia performed absurdly well. I disabled it to restore sanity to the ancient world, but didn't get to updating the info text and reenabling the old UP.

I like your suggestion for India's UP, because I've been thinking about their ability to benefit from multiple religions as well lately. I haven't touched the issue yet because I'm toying with the idea of giving non-state religions -1 happiness, India's UP would then rather obviously be to ignore this penalty. Babylonia could then inherit the current Indian UP. I didn't do this yet because I realized when you're penalized for multiple religion you need a possibility to remove them, so all this won't happen until I add some kind of religious prosecutor.

And by the way, the latest changes are committed to the SVN now.

 

[The Turk]

A good UP for the Indians would be that no matter what their state religion is, they still get a cultural bonus from non-state religions. How does that sound? And I wouldn't give them some "free civic", thats a bit overused...


Also I would increase the limit on the Silk Road company, as I don't see much of it :/

And finally why not have a "hindu" civilization that represents all those Hindu Kingdoms in Southern India from the Chola to the Maratha Confederacy and then to Modern India.

I would recommend spawning an Indian civ in Thanjavur, as the Chola Dynasty. They ruled an impressive region starting in 848 (The more famous Medieval Chola Dynasty).
You can read about them here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chola_dynasty
But as you can see they controlled a fairly extensive area of Southern India and held sway over much of South East Asia, UNTIL their rivals the Srivijaya and then the Majaphit pushed them out, due to economic superamacy. That IMO would be a lot better use for an early Indian respawn

PS. Please give the Indonesians 1-2 Buddhist missionaries, as well as spreading Islam randomly in Indonesia around 1400 onwards (the first conversion being 1414 apparently).

 

[J. pride]

Also I would increase the limit on the Silk Road company, as I don't see much of it :/

One thing to do would be to more fairly divide it among the regions meaning that if a city in Persia already has a the company than it is more likely that the company will spread to another city in Mesopotamia or Anatolia. I say this because the last game i was playing Silk Road spread to Shiraz and Qandahar but not in any of my "important cities".

Also how do u plan on spreading the silk route to Italy.

 

[Leoreth]

A good UP for the Indians would be that no matter what their state religion is, they still get a cultural bonus from non-state religions. How does that sound? And I wouldn't give them some "free civic", thats a bit overused...


Also I would increase the limit on the Silk Road company, as I don't see much of it :/

And finally why not have a "hindu" civilization that represents all those Hindu Kingdoms in Southern India from the Chola to the Maratha Confederacy and then to Modern India.

I would recommend spawning an Indian civ in Thanjavur, as the Chola Dynasty. They ruled an impressive region starting in 848 (The more famous Medieval Chola Dynasty).
You can read about them here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chola_dynasty
But as you can see they controlled a fairly extensive area of Southern India and held sway over much of South East Asia, UNTIL their rivals the Srivijaya and then the Majaphit pushed them out, due to economic superamacy. That IMO would be a lot better use for an early Indian respawn

PS. Please give the Indonesians 1-2 Buddhist missionaries, as well as spreading Islam randomly in Indonesia around 1400 onwards (the first conversion being 1414 apparently).

Argh, don't get me started on that Chola map, that one gets ridiculed in the history subforum at regular intervals for a reason. I can't imagine how it's still on wikipedia. The Chola were really a power limited to southern India with some trade relations around the Bay of Bengal.

One thing to do would be to more fairly divide it among the regions meaning that if a city in Persia already has a the company than it is more likely that the company will spread to another city in Mesopotamia or Anatolia. I say this because the last game i was playing Silk Road spread to Shiraz and Qandahar but not in any of my "important cities".

Also how do u plan on spreading the silk route to Italy.

It's divided among civilizations already (the more cities already have them, the less likely it becomes). The problem is that the indies in Persia can produce many bordering cities belonging to different civs.

And the silk route is geographically limited to as far west as Constantinople.

 

[J. pride]

It's divided among civilizations already (the more cities already have them, the less likely it becomes). The problem is that the indies in Persia can produce many bordering cities belonging to different civs.

I had control over all over Persia when this happened; also I was talking about geographically limiting them not culturally. Meaning that one region can only get a certain number of corps; this way the route will be more spread out and balanced.

And the silk route is geographically limited to as far west as Constantinople.

Something needs to be done for Italy. In real life Venice (and other Italian city states) was one of the largest cities in the whole of Europe. In the game it only reaches a meagre six. I thought that silk route would be one of the best ways to represent growth and wealth of medieval Italy.

 

[The Turk]

Argh, don't get me started on that Chola map, that one gets ridiculed in the history subforum at regular intervals for a reason. I can't imagine how it's still on wikipedia. The Chola were really a power limited to southern India with some trade relations around the Bay of Bengal.

Leoreth, I thinking your being a tad over dramatic here. The Chola Dynasty were a legitimate dynasty that ruled a great swath of Southern and Eastern India as well as the Indian Ocean. So why not include them? Why wait all the way until the Maratha confederacy arrives, which IMO does not make sense since there currently are no Mughals to be had; when you can have the Medieval Chola Dynasty spawn in 848 AD in Thanjavur.

You can find more information on their first Tamil leader in the Medieval Chola Dynasty:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vijayalaya_Chola. They could easily have 4-5 cities in India /Sri Lanka/Bangladesh regions.

The Chola Empire would be a good in for Southern India and a better competitor against the Srivijaya, who they could start off with bad relations, and therefore create a competitor for the Indonesians. Not to mention their emphasis on the sea, would keep them off of Northern India, which would spawn the Muslim dynasties starting in 1206.

Also please take note of the need for a Buddhist Missionary in the Indonesian spawn and the need to spread Islam randomly in Indonesia in the 15th century.

PS. Adding another LH for Babylon like Nebuchadnezzer would be pretty cool. I found a really well done one here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=17330
Alternatively, have you ever thought about respawing the Babylonians as the Assyrians? Or having their capital moved to Nineveh, and their name being changed to Assyria. IMO having them would be far more interesting then a docile Babylon that sits there. The Assyrians could expand into Turkey, Mespotamia, the Levant and Egypt. Now there would be an interesting game, if you had an expansive power in the heart of Mesopotamia.

For more information on adding the Neo-Assyrians, you can look here: (You can really see how big their Empire got)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Assyrian_Empire

 

[Linkman226]

As Leoreth said, that wiki page is historical nonsense. Tamilian nationalists being Tamilian nationalists, basically.

 

[J. pride]

I thought u make Rasht unsettleable or were u planning to do it in the future. Anyways, I just wanted to remind you.


Most of these Mongolian cities are garbage. Btw; are u still considering to spawn independent cities along the silk road (Turfan and Kashgar are the most prominant) because if u are than u should just remove most of the extra mongol settler and just flip these two cities to them.

This is the Mongol territory in 1400ish ad (cant be sure since i was loading as the Dutch); notice that they only recently conquered Beijing. In this era they should have a most of China and Arabia and are already supposed to be collapsing. I also had this other epic screenshoot in which the Mongol Conquerers took over Samarkand but instead of advancing everyone of the troops were retreating back across the Silk Road. Whats worse is that they didnt even leave a defender in Samarkand.



Now for China:
1) Why is it that in almost every game there isnt even one Chineses city over the population of 13. Ive seen that China is almost never the most populous country in the world. With a country that is supposed to be as populous as the whole of Europe (in the Middle Ages) it turned out to be smaller than France or Britain (Paris had a pop of 13 and London 10 in the same time period). Can u buff them up somewhat and remove some of those mountains and forests.

2) Ive seen that in in almost half of my games (maybe even more) China does not conquer Guangzhou.

3) Are u still planning on adding Nanjing and adding a capital change dynamic for China (u suggested one long time ago)



I find the Korean expansion into Siberia a bit too much. The Hambung city is ok but any thing north should rarely not certainly happen. Have u considered adding a few tiles to Korea to make two cities plausible.


Lately ive noticed civs constructing embassies for dead civs.


I many of my games the Arabs dont conquer Persia. You know those camel archers that spawn in Baghdad on flip (or Cairo) have u considered spawning them on a random tile in Persia. I suggested this a long time ago and i think the same is still applicable. Actually it is even more important because of the Mongols conquerers event that the Arabs control Persia and Central Asia. Oddly enough the Arabs seem to conquer Central Asia by themselves

 

[Linkman226]

Comments in red (Leoreth, don't bother responding to my points specifically. I'm just backing up J. pride)

View attachment 299448
Most of these Mongolian cities are garbage. Btw; are u still considering to spawn independent cities along the silk road (Turfan and Kashgar are the most prominant) because if u are than u should just remove most of the extra mongol settler and just flip these two cities to them.

View attachment 299451
This is the Mongol territory in 1400ish ad (cant be sure since i was loading as the Dutch); notice that they only recently conquered Beijing. In this era they should have a most of China and Arabia and are already supposed to be collapsing. I also had this other epic screenshoot in which the Mongol Conquerers took over Samarkand but instead of advancing everyone of the troops were retreating back across the Silk Road. Whats worse is that they didnt even leave a defender in Samarkand.

Leoreth, I may be wrong, but last I looked at your source code, you DECREASED that divisor we talked about, rather than increasing it. That should account for the above to some extent at least.

I find the Korean expansion into Siberia a bit too much. The Hambung city is ok but any thing north should rarely not certainly happen. Have u considered adding a few tiles to Korea to make two cities plausible.

Very true.

View attachment 299455
Lately ive noticed civs constructing embassies for dead civs.

Me too!

View attachment 299453
I many of my games the Arabs dont conquer Persia. You know those camel archers that spawn in Baghdad on flip (or Cairo) have u considered spawning them on a random tile in Persia. I suggested this a long time ago and i think the same is still applicable. Actually it is even more important because of the Mongols conquerers event that the Arabs control Persia and Central Asia. Oddly enough the Arabs seem to conquer Central Asia by themselves

Also me! It seems like nearly all of the time they go for Anatolia instead of Persia or North Africa

 

[The Turk]

As Leoreth said, that wiki page is historical nonsense. Tamilian nationalists being Tamilian nationalists, basically.

Oh please Linkman, look here then:
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/124889/Chola-dynasty
I can assure you that there were no Tamil Nationalists writing about them here. Not to mention I have an entire textbook on World History that had two pages on the Chola Empire and their relations with the Srivijaya. I would quote it, but alas I do not have the textbook with me (but I'll see what I can do...). They would be a perfect civ to add to Southern India, to fill up the space and to challenge the Srivijaya and Khmer. Currently the Indian Ocean is too empty, and should have more action going on.

Also I agree Nanjing should be added, and the Koreans stopped from entering into Manchuria. They should be like the Babylonians content to have one or two cities.

Also while playing as the Germans, I hit the Reformation, but Portugal and France became Protestant, while England remained Catholic. Is it possible to have a more historical antagonism happen, with at least France becoming Catholic and England Protestant.

As for the Arabs avoiding Shiraz (which I believe should be removed and Isfahan moved south, where Persepolis is), I think the Zorastrian Holy City should be removed, which would lower Shiraz defense, and allow the city to be conquered more often. Thats the only reason why I see it that the Arabs have stopped taking the city.

 

[Linkman226]

"He conquered portions of the Malay Peninsula and the Malay Archipelago."

Hardly the map you see there. And it wasn't held for long either.

 

[J. pride]

As for the Arabs avoiding Shiraz (which I believe should be removed and Isfahan moved south, where Persepolis is), I think the Zorastrian Holy City should be removed, which would lower Shiraz defense, and allow the city to be conquered more often. Thats the only reason why I see it that the Arabs have stopped taking the city.

Wrong, a camel archer can easily take out the archer there 90 out of a 100 times.

 

[The Turk]

"He conquered portions of the Malay Peninsula and the Malay Archipelago."

Hardly the map you see there. And it wasn't held for long either.

No, no, no, I'm not saying that the Chola should take parts of Indonesia at all, I'm talking about them taking Southern, Eastern India and Sri Lanka. So a total of 4-5 cities they could hold, while letting Northern India come under the control of Muslim Sultanates. They would spawn in 848, as the Chola Dynasty, but would evolve later on to other Hindu Kingdoms in Southern Indian, eventually leading to the Maratha Confederacy (who spawn late), and finally to Modern India. That map just shows them holding sway over those areas, economic power you could say, not actual political control.

@J.Pride,

Yes of course I know this, but its because its a Holy City, that I believe they avoid it. That and because of its extra culture bonus. I would strongly recommend removing the obsolete Holy City from there.

 

[AOS9001]

Wow, a lot's happened while I've been inactive. A few things I saw no mention of in the last month's conversation:
-I believe there was once a plan to work over the eastern part of the Indian subcontinent, to make it a little more useful. Currently, it's still kind of lame.

Actually, that's pretty much the only thing that's relevant.

Spoiler :

Way back in the spring, I do remember some talk of re-doing the medeival/renaissance combat system.

But as the focus here is on Asia, I'll recommend eastern India be improved a bit. Maybe another river and slightly less jungle.

 

[The Turk]

@Leoreth

Something which I suggested to Linkman for his Synthesis mod is this:

Spoiler :

Out of curiosity have you ever thought of revolutionizing the English spawn, so that the English spawn in 1066, with Rouen (a pre-placed strong independent city in 600 AD, in Northern France). IMO that would create a VERY interesting game. You could have a preplaced Eboracum (York) or Manchester that would flip to the English in 1066, when the spawn in London. I would love to see the ensuing conflict between France and England and the Vikings as well!

Would you too, be interested in implementing something like this?

 

[Linkman226]

No, no, no, I'm not saying that the Chola should take parts of Indonesia at all, I'm talking about them taking Southern, Eastern India and Sri Lanka. So a total of 4-5 cities they could hold, while letting Northern India come under the control of Muslim Sultanates. They would spawn in 848, as the Chola Dynasty, but would evolve later on to other Hindu Kingdoms in Southern Indian, eventually leading to the Maratha Confederacy (who spawn late), and finally to Modern India. That map just shows them holding sway over those areas, economic power you could say, not actual political control.

@J.Pride,

Yes of course I know this, but its because its a Holy City, that I believe they avoid it. That and because of its extra culture bonus. I would strongly recommend removing the obsolete Holy City from there.

I can see making them a minor civ... not much else.

And AOS! You're back!

 

[AOS9001]

And AOS! You're back!

Success, someone remembers me. In addendum to my previous post, I'd like to say that various trading company/corporations for each European colonial Civ sounds like a fun idea. Though, I'm not exactly sure how it would work out once you hit the modern age... There's a lot of potential for awesome things here, and there's never a bad time to mess around with ideas.