Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth

[Ekolite]

If you're changing Indonesian jungles to forests, what have you decided for their UHV? I'm guessing it's no longer ''can build improvements on jungle tiles''.

The Asian conquerer events sound interesting, but I have to admit I'm worried a bit about the deterministic consequences for giving each civ a specific location in which to spawn. Have you considered instead maybe creating certain projects such as ''Indian Expedition'', ''Indonesian Expedition'' which are available for whoever builds them first and spawns an army for that civ at the relevent location. Some, such as the Indian one, could even be repeatable so that you can have two waves of invasion, or two different civs colonising that area.

You could give certain civs a production bonus to certain projects so that there is still a decent chance of reasonably historical play, but without making it quite so clear cut.

Also, I admit I don't know a huge amount about the colonial period in Asia, but could China and Japan be considered targets of these projects which irl successfully repelled the attack?

 

[Leoreth]

I plan to do this anyway because it makes sense for many civs.

 

[Leoreth]

If you're changing Indonesian jungles to forests, what have you decided for their UHV? I'm guessing it's no longer ''can build improvements on jungle tiles''.

No, I'm back to something trade related there.

The Asian conquerer events sound interesting, but I have to admit I'm worried a bit about the deterministic consequences for giving each civ a specific location in which to spawn. Have you considered instead maybe creating certain projects such as ''Indian Expedition'', ''Indonesian Expedition'' which are available for whoever builds them first and spawns an army for that civ at the relevent location. Some, such as the Indian one, could even be repeatable so that you can have two waves of invasion, or two different civs colonising that area.

Don't know, I think the Trading Company is quite a neat and historical way to tie that in. It doesn't need to be too deterministic, I can randomize the spawn locations and amount of units and settlers somewhat, to create different outcomes.

Also, I admit I don't know a huge amount about the colonial period in Asia, but could China and Japan be considered targets of these projects which irl successfully repelled the attack?

I don't think Japan was ever victim of colonization attempts (although the Portuguese ran heavy conversion attempts until they were banned). China of course had the Opium Wars against Britain, which led to a semi-vassalization.

 

[J. pride]

To get a little competition into the game. It's not fun if you get things without having to work for them. Suggestions for the TC effects noted, though.

Ok than what about humans not getting the conquerers event if they are not the firs ones to build the trade company. And the last two civs (of the Dutch, Portugal, France, Britain) to make the trade company dont get full fledged conquerers event but some partial benefits. So this is how it would go:

British: A settler and two defenders to build Calcutta. Flip the city if have to.
French: A settler on Madras and contact with the Khmer/Thai also reveals map of Indo-China.
Portugual: A settler and defender of Goa.
Dutch: Jakarta flip.

True. But I don't think Ghorids and Mughals should be the same civ - Ghorids seem to be better as a CiA style minor civ.

I dont think there is a need to add the Ghorids then. Just delay the start to 1200 (Delhi Sultanate). Having multiple civs with same area will complicate things especially if u add the seljuks in the west.

 

[Ekolite]

Apparently the city of Ayutthaya was considered to be one of the biggest and wealthiest cities in the east during the 16th century. This could be the basis of an interesting UHV, something like ''Make Ayutthaya the largest and most culturally advanced city in Asia by 15XX''. Would bring them into direct competition with their next door neighbours of India, China and Indonesia.

Apparently they also achieved hegemony over much of SE Asia for a while, and became a a big trader in rice. Maybe something like ''control x amount of rice by [date]'' could be a fun way to represent that. IRL they tried several times but failed to conquer Malacca due to the influence of Ming China so perhaps this should be a key area for the UHV.

Their last one should probably be something to do with Hinduism and Budhism, both of which had a lot of influence in the Kingdom. Or if you've had enough of religious based UHV's, maybe something relating to trade with Europe? They were traditionally very friendly towards foreign traders, including merchants from both regional and european nations, so maybe something like ''control or gain through trade x amount of luxury resources'' could represent that quite well?

 

[Leoreth]

Good suggestions. 15xx is a little to early though, with Ayutthaya spawning in 1360 roughly. I like the rice idea, although "establish open borders with all active European civs" also fits quite well.

The wide array of available UHV goals shows they'd make for a great civ

This is how Indonesia looks like after the overhaul. Didn't add any resource except 1x iron and 1x gems. Maybe a source of oil on Sumatra (northern tip) could be added as well.

View attachment 299299
View attachment 299300

Not yet shown: forest instead of jungle on the Manila tile on the Philippines.

 

[BenZL43]

Hence the question mark. I'll open up the Manila spot for settlement in any case (though I doubt this makes Spain go there).

How about spawning a settler in the Philippines once any Spanish unit first contacted with the island (spot the tile)

Yeah, it's meant to make them a little more proactive than the historic original. Sitting around and defending your cities only makes for a boring UHV goal.

Well, when European value Southeast Asian so much that it went to conquer them it'll be interesting like defending your homeland from rows of French galleon
But in the meantime, that UHV is not bad either

Oh, I've changed my mind in the meantime to have them start as the Ayutthaya kingdom. For simplicity's sake, Ayutthaya and Bangkok share the same tile and only get a rename at some point.

So how about the problem between Bangkok and the Phnom Penh (or Angkor) tiles?

Due to the nature of spice in RFC, none of the actual silk route civs would own it. It fits better for the trading company.

Okay..

You mean different rates of cultural defense?

Yeah.. so when European arrived in Southeast Asia they don't find cities with like 50% fortification etc.. not just AI, me as Human, I'd like to leave cities like that rather than cost many unit to just conquer it for pride

Good. I think I may have to bug you again, because Indonesia also needs unique
names for its great people. I could do some research, but I guess you can judge much better who actually deserves to be included. Please limit each person to 5-6 names that cover as many eras as possible.

What do you mean by good?
Will you use the map I revised or not?

[Did not spot that there's page 185. Deja vu huh? =_= You may ignore the above sentences then...]

Hmm okay.. When do Indonesia spawn?
And please remind me what's the category again?
Great Prophet, Merchant, General, Artist, Engineer, and Spy?
Did I miss anything else? And 6 names each category each era? Okay..
Will generate the names in the moment..
True. But I don't think Ghorids and Mughals should be the same civ - Ghorids seem to be better as a CiA style minor civ.

They need an average city size of 10. That can even be achieved by only having Angkor

OMG.. is that UHV were like that since the original version of RFC?
Then I must saw it wrong that I always think Khmer's goal was to have 10 cities..

That'd be the optimal result. In how many games this will actually happen I can't say, I guess it will never be perfect no matter what I do.

Don't get down.. one day it will

Building some temples is boring, and we already have enough religious building goals floating around. See Borobudur as their alt-hist goal, just like France has to build the SoL.

French really built SoL.. it was built in France and transferred to America..

And about Dido (and her precious assets)
Why don't the game go like this..
King Hiram starts at beginning,
when Carthage is (auto) founded, Queen Dido is the leader..
And when Rome declare WAR to Phoenicia, Hannibal is the leader..

There's still pretty much turn between Carthage spawn and Rome declare war..

 

[BenZL43]

I like your map..
Just some requests..

1) Please move that southeast attachment away from Java.. 1 tile east to be Bali or Sumbawa, so the Timor island 1 tile east as well..
2) Add aluminium to Sulawesi (Celebes)
3) Add coal to Kalimantan and Papua
5) Oil in the sea southeast of Kinabalu mount (at Borneo)
4) Gem on Kalimantan move 1 tile south

 

[Opera]

Love the renewed activity and all the shiny things to come!

Good luck for your work and playtesting

 

[IrishDragon]

New map looks good, can the Khmer be discouraged from founding Singapore seen as they will lose it within a few turns?

 

[Leoreth]

So how about the problem between Bangkok and the Phnom Penh (or Angkor) tiles?

Angkor will be razed. The historical Thais did this as well so it's not too bad.

Hmm okay.. When do Indonesia spawn?
And please remind me what's the category again?
Great Prophet, Merchant, General, Artist, Engineer, and Spy?
Did I miss anything else? And 6 names each category each era? Okay..
Will generate the names in the moment..

Indonesia spawns at 700 AD. The categories are prophet (saints, theologists), artist (writers, painters, sculptors, musicians, playwrights), scientist, engineer (architects, inventors), merchant (entrepreneurs, economists, explorers) and general. Spies don't have dynamic names.

French really built SoL.. it was built in France and transferred to America..

Use America as an example then

I like your map..
Just some requests..

1) Please move that southeast attachment away from Java.. 1 tile east to be Bali or Sumbawa, so the Timor island 1 tile east as well..
2) Add aluminium to Sulawesi (Celebes)
3) Add coal to Kalimantan and Papua
5) Oil in the sea southeast of Kinabalu mount (at Borneo)
4) Gem on Kalimantan move 1 tile south

1) I can't move everything around and islands being connected to other landmasses is not unheard of (Sicily, for example).
2+3) One source of coal and aluminum makes sense.
4) It's intentionally not in the south of Kalimantan to prevent it from being accessed from Java.
5) Borneo already has oil ...

New map looks good, can the Khmer be discouraged from founding Singapore seen as they will lose it within a few turns?

Will be included into the next revision I'll commit.

 

[BenZL43]

Angkor will be razed. The historical Thais did this as well so it's not too bad.

Automatically razed when Thai spawn? Nice one

Indonesia spawns at 700 AD. The categories are prophet (saints, theologists), artist (writers, painters, sculptors, musicians, playwrights), scientist, engineer (architects, inventors), merchant (entrepreneurs, economists, explorers) and general. Spies don't have dynamic names.

How about spawning them in 600AD? It's when Sri Vijaya start to flourish, create contact to China etc, and fit to the 600AD scenario..
Archaeological trace shown that Palembang was also built around 600AD also, though.
To keep the balance of four civs at starts, we could move Arabia to 632 AD (The Turk's request long ago, now historical and 4 Civs starts.. )

I'll post the Great People in the new post.

1) I can't move everything around and islands being connected to other landmasses is not unheard of (Sicily, for example).
2+3) One source of coal and aluminum makes sense.
4) It's intentionally not in the south of Kalimantan to prevent it from being accessed from Java.
5) Borneo already has oil ...

1) Well.. but there's never been a southern island next to Java.. but that's alright. I'll assumed that it's Bali (Will help changing all the CNM.py entries )
2+3+4) Okay..
5) Well there's 2 major spot for Oil in reality around Borneo.
And spotting you place 1 over there..
How about swap the oil and fish place, making it accessible to the Peninsula as well..
And spawn another oil northeast of the gem...
Oh, and please remove the Sugar, change it with Rice 1 tile east (on the Hill)
Sugar can be placed on the new tile you add in Sumatra (Don't add oil there)

 

[BenZL43]

GREAT GENERAL

Dharmawangsa
Airlangga
Raden Wijaya
Ken Dedes

GREAT ARTIST

Asep Sunandar Sunarya
I Made Sidia

GREAT ENGINEER

Samaratungga
Nini Haji Rakryan Sanjiwana
Rakai Pikatan
Lokapala
Pikatan

GREAT MERCHANT
Çrī Kahulunnan

GREAT SCIENTIST
GREAT PROPHET

Sunan Ampel
Sunan Maulana Malik Ibrahim
Sunan Bayat
Sunan Giri
Sunan Murya
Sunan Ngampel-Denta
Sunan Sitijenar
Sunan Bonang
Sunan Drajat
Sunan Gunungjati
Sunan Kalijaga
Sunan Kudus
Sunan Walinanang

 

[Linkman226]

Is Sunan THAT common a name? or does it mean something?

And nice work

 

[Leoreth]

Automatically razed when Thai spawn? Nice one

Yeah but that's a side effect of the current mechanism anyway (when a civ spawns, all cities in the 3x3 cross around them get deleted). We're just lucky that it suits history in this case

How about spawning them in 600AD? It's when Sri Vijaya start to flourish, create contact to China etc, and fit to the 600AD scenario..
Archaeological trace shown that Palembang was also built around 600AD also, though.
To keep the balance of four civs at starts, we could move Arabia to 632 AD (The Turk's request long ago, now historical and 4 Civs starts.. )

Making a 600 AD civ is always ugly, because you have to change certain things. Historicians don't seem to be certain of Srivijaya's beginnings and usually place it somewhere in the 7th century. I chose 700 just to make sure.

1) Well.. but there's never been a southern island next to Java.. but that's alright. I'll assumed that it's Bali (Will help changing all the CNM.py entries )
2+3+4) Okay..
5) Well there's 2 major spot for Oil in reality around Borneo.
And spotting you place 1 over there..
How about swap the oil and fish place, making it accessible to the Peninsula as well..
And spawn another oil northeast of the gem...
Oh, and please remove the Sugar, change it with Rice 1 tile east (on the Hill)
Sugar can be placed on the new tile you add in Sumatra (Don't add oil there)

I've always thought it's Bali. And you're right about the rice, Palembang has some problems with growth.


Thanks for the GP names! Are they sorted by era, i.e. oldest first? And do I get this right that there are no scientist names? It would also be good if you could cut down the prophets to 5 at most (I guess you can decide better than me who's actually important). They'll never spawn that many anyway.

 

[Leoreth]

An Indian respawn is added now. I'll have to do some balancing to make them more competitive in the 17th century, as well as for Persia, then I'll commit.

View attachment 299390
View attachment 299391

I've also added new graphics for Nicholas, Isabella and Catherine. And due to popular request, Hiram is now the Phoenician starting LH.

 

[J. pride]

And Indian respawn is added now. I'll have to do some balancing to make them more competitive in the 17th century, as well as for Persia, then I'll commit.

What Civilzations is it supposed to represent? (Mughals, Marathas or others) I dont think that LH is quite appropiate for India. (Looks more like a central Asia LH).

I would also suggest you center the resources around the major cities and also make the settler values for theses cities up. For Example cities like Hydrabad and Calcutta.

 

[The Turk]

An Indian respawn is added now. I'll have to do some balancing to make them more competitive in the 17th century, as well as for Persia, then I'll commit.

View attachment 299390
View attachment 299391

I've also added new graphics for Nicholas, Isabella and Catherine. And due to popular request, Hiram is now the Phoenician starting LH.

Hip Hip Hooray for Leoreth! Modding God of the year!

By the way though, I'm not getting the SVN update, have you committed it yet?

Also I'm a bit confused of how you set up India. For example why is their capital Mumbai, and why do the Safavids control Delhi? The way India should be played out is with the Indians spawning as a Muslim faction in Northern India representing the Delhi Sultanate/Mughals, while Ghorids/Ghaznavids, can be represented by barbarian swordsmen IMO. Later after the Europeans carve out India, it will respawn again in 1940's

And then the Southern Hindu states, can be represented by spawning independent city-states, that are heavily guarded. This sounds like the best way to do it, unless you want to add another civilization, that acts like a Pakistan/Afghanistan mix, that invades India and then represents the Muslim Empires of India.

PS. Nor do I think that their LH is appropriate.

 

[Leoreth]

I thought we had this through? The Indian respawn is the Maratha Empire (1674). The Safavids control Delhi because they conquered it I'll add the Mughals as a proper civ later to bring that region into shape. The Marathas don't flip northern India because their empire is based in the Deccan. The capital was Raigad, which was a fortress close to Mumbai.

I thought you'd bring Shivaji's LH up. Indian leaders are rare, and Shaybani Khan actually looks quite similar to Shivaji's depictions shown at wikipedia:

Spoiler :

If I knew something about LH making I'd retexture his clothes white and make his beard a little longer.

 

[The Turk]

Considering that the Maratha Empire was only founded in 1640-ish, why not have it represented by the Vijaynagar Empire:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vijaynagar_Empire
Which was founded in 1336. That sound more reasonable IMO, for a respawn then waiting that long. And yes a Mughal civ would be pretty awesome!

Also the SVN is still not updating.