Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth

[Leoreth]

The old RFC UP grants free promotions. I've replaced that with a reduced experience requirement for leveling up. But that could easily be converted into an equivalent XP bonus so their GG rate increases as well.

I don't think they'd need a boost to espionage for such a goal ... it's simpler to adjust the number of required techs instead. And if China's tech rate changes pan out, it might even be more effective to invest your commerce into espionage instead to tech.

 

[Opera]

Alright, that's something to try out then

 

[ilduce349]

Japan wasn't an advanced nation in 1600 ad. They massive boom, which was from 1860 to 1920 placed them from a 3rd world country in the 1800s to a country that compete with the European powers.

They were isolationist and didn't care about what was happening outside of Japan prior to 1860, so stealing techs by 1600 makes little sense. And as Japan stole their techs from America, not and Asian country it makes little sense for it to have any historical accuracy...

 

[Opera]

So basically you mean they should only spawn when they became important in the eyes of the europeans? That's an error IMO. Japan ought to spawn around the beginning of its classical period at least (so the date chosen by Leoreth is good).

Then, it did profit from China in many ways and that could easily be seen as 'stealing' techs.

And no, they weren't ALWAYS isolationist, or not as much as you pretend it. They lived on an island -- I don't think many had the choice to not be somewhat isolationist; or more like isolated. They had true isolationist periods however but that's not a defining point imo.

 

[Leoreth]

Japan was ahead of Europe in many aspects when the first Europeans arrived in the 16th century. Especially where aspects like hygiene or governance were concerned.

 

[ilduce349]

but had no industrialization, and the Europeans didn't arive in Japan until 1800s...

 

[christos200]

Wrong. Frank christians missionaries arived in japan at the 16th century.

 

[Algor Mortis]

The Dutch (and I believe Portuguese) arrived in Japan as he said in the 16th century. The Shogunate sanctioned limited trade with them from then on. If I remember correctly, the foreign traders were mostly restricted to the island of Tanegashima (Or perhaps just around there?) and to the court of the Shogun himself. A fun fact is Tanegashima is where the Japanese began to trade for their first firearms from the Europeans, and guns in Japan have often been referred to as "Tanegashima" since. And to respond to Leoreth, in terms of "culture techs" Japan was ahead of Europe when they arrived. The Europeans would have been a bit ahead in "technical/practical techs" at this point I believe. Also, I just thought I'd throw in that I support Leoreth's change of spawn date.

 

[Leoreth]

It sounds like you have a very pop-historic view on Japan. Portuguese sailors arrived in Japan by accident, official missionaries followed soon thereafter. The Dutch and English also established relations with Japan. The Europeans were even the major reason for Japan's isolationism - large parts of the Japanese peasantry had converted to Christianity and the Shogunate feared for their loyalty in an assumed European invasion.

It's beyond question that Japan lagged behind in the 19th century, but that's saying nothing about the 16th. That was arguably caused by Japan's conservatism and skepticism against foreign idea during the seclusion period, not some kind of European headstart in the Middle Ages.

Edit: crosspost with Algor Mortis

I don't think that Europeans were that far ahead in engineering, either. Their main advantages were the military application of gunpowder and naval technology.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Japan was very receptive to Chinese and Corean influence from all periods in between the Yayoi to the end of the Heian period (300 BC-1185 AD)
but it was only after then and the Mongol invasions during the Kamakura period that their receptiveness waned.

Not trying to make or reinforce a point, I'm just throwing that fact out there.

Also Leoreth, would you consider the idea of an independent Shuri/Naha spawning on Okinawa?

 

[Leoreth]

Sure.

 

[IrishDragon]

Got the following error when starting a 3000BC game as the Germans

Traceback (most recent call last):
File "CvEventInterface", line 23, in onEvent
File "CvRFCEventManager", line 111, in handleEvent
File "CvRFCEventManager", line 122, in_handleDefaultEvent
File "CvRFCEventHandler, line 466, in onBeginGameTurn
File "Barbs", line 342, in checkTurn
TyperError:foundCity() takes exactly 8 arguments (7 given)

 

[Leoreth]

Thanks, already caught and fixed. Should be gone with the latest revision.

 

[IrishDragon]

Loaded up another 3000BC with Germany, got the following


Traceback (most recent call last):
File "CvEventInterface", line 23, in onEvent
File "CvRFCEventManager", line 122, in_handleDefaultEvent
File "CvRFCEventHandler, line 606, in onGreatPersonBorn
TyperError: onGreatPersonBorn() takes exactly 2 arguments (3 given)

There was also one about onFirstContact, that I didn't get a chance to take down

More minor, but when opening diplomacy with the Vikings, there was the option to force them to make peace with Alfred twice, think one was the Celts

Sundapura starts with a small s

 

[Leoreth]

Fixed, thanks again. And yeah, the double Alfred is for the Celts once (Alfred is only a renamed Brennus).

 

[Samsa]

I got to agree with Leoreth, Tomorrow's Dawn and Algor Mortis on this subject. Only in the Tokugawa showed isolationism and still they had trade with other countrys:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakoku
The Dutch even wich where allowed on a small island near Nagasaki, wich they got firearms from.

And as long as we speak about Japan, can we expect some Terrain change? Don't like the current Terrain that much, it is pretty bad except around Edo/Tokyo.

 

[Ekolite]

Really? I think if anything Japan is too good! Especially considering the islands are utterly resourceless irl. I have to say I like their later start, it makes them more likely to be weak in comparison to China in the early period (which is good), and their population less of an issue for Indonesia (which is really good). Not as sure about the new UHV, which I like but not neccessarily for Japan.

 

[Leoreth]

I agree, Japan is already exceptionally large (it practically got the Europe treatment) and can provide high production.

To which new UHV do you refer to? Great generals, or espionage?

 

[Ekolite]

The Great Generals mainly, but also the espionage one, although that is mostly due to my personal dislike of the civ4 espionage system.

 

[Leoreth]

I already tried to make it more open by also allowing tech trading (essentially making this "acquire X techs by not researching them yourself"), but unfortunately I can't find where the actual tech trade is executed so there's no trigger for this