Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth
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Ekolite
Deity
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That's interesting, but I wonder if it would be much use. China seems to fall behind in tech quite quickly, especially once the Euro's get going and the UP would be no use in helping them catch up. However depending on how big the bonus is it could possibly be useful in the very early game. If they could then keep their lead it would continue being useful, but as soon as they fall behind UP is gone. Of course not neccesarilly a bad thing.. But I think it would have to be a pretty big modifier.
Its too late to prioritise those techs in my current game, but I might start a new one with the Japanese start date commit.
Linkman226
#anarchy
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I disagree. Usually in my games China is still on par with China until about the 1700s. Well it was before the Mongol conquerors, in any event.
ilduce349
(Financial, Philo)
Dislike it, that encourages fighting enemies on the mainland, rather then being isolantionist like it was until 1800
ilduce349
(Financial, Philo)
During the Yamato period, which was before Japan was unified and prior to 700 ad...
Linkman226
#anarchy
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Welcome to the game of Polities Civilization!
I thought that'd be a cool idea too but I changed my mind.
I thought that'd be a cool idea too but I changed my mind.
ilduce349
(Financial, Philo)
?????
I still support the change in time, i just don't like the new UHV...
The point for the time chage (aka why I suggested it), was so that Japan would more likely be isolationist until late game.
I still support the change in time, i just don't like the new UHV...
The point for the time chage (aka why I suggested it), was so that Japan would more likely be isolationist until late game.
How about:
Be one of the first two (it can also be first or one of the first three) civilizations to enter the Industrial Age but you cannot trading technologies at all.
This represents Japan's early rise to the Industrial Age while all of its Asian neighbors were Agricultural and it also shows its isolationist policies.
If the first goal is too had then: Be the first Non-European Civ to enter the Industrial Age also works.
Be one of the first two (it can also be first or one of the first three) civilizations to enter the Industrial Age but you cannot trading technologies at all.
This represents Japan's early rise to the Industrial Age while all of its Asian neighbors were Agricultural and it also shows its isolationist policies.
If the first goal is too had then: Be the first Non-European Civ to enter the Industrial Age also works.
Algor Mortis
Chieftain
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I also disagree with the UHV choice for the same reasons. I was thinking something more like "Have x culture by..." or "Have at least one city with x culture by..." Which encourages isolation until later for Japan, and also might slow the player down in tech a bit by encouraging them to actually put money into culture instead of pure research.
ilduce349
(Financial, Philo)
with algoI disagree, the main reason Japan rose to Industialization so fast was because America tried to what in game would be vasalize Japan peacefully.
Essentially, America gifted 2-3 techs to Japan to boost relations with Japan.
Edit: However that was temporary during the 1870s, the massive boost Japan saw from then until the 1920s was entirely on their own.
Maybe the goal should be construct x factories before 1920.
Tomorrow's Dawn
Heroes Never Die
Hi everyone, I've been following this for a few weeks now and thought I would like to contribute to the East Asia conversation.
Yes, Japan has attempted an invasion of Corea in two instances before 1800:
The first instance took place in the 600s, when Yamato Japan attempted to assist Baekje from the Tang-Silla alliance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Baekgang
The second being the Imjin Wars where they were able to gain a foothold on the Corean peninsula for a time but were expelled.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imjin_War
I think the 3 Great Generals historical condition might have more to do with the Sengoku period (15th to 17th century) that produced a wealth of famous military commanders in that time. I still don't think it's a good goal though and would lean in the direction of something more culture-based.
Also, I have a suggestion to make. Shuri/Naha (Okinawa) should spawn as an independent city as it was historically a very important city for maritime trade in the region. They were historically under Chinese influence for most of their history and later became invaded by the Satsuma clan so it could be a good point of contention between China & Japan.
Also a name to contribute for the scientific Chinese power:
The Power of the Scholar-Bureaucracy
EDIT: For the Unique Library/University, Examination Hall.
In the event the scientific UP idea ever gets dropped, I suggest perhaps a power that raises stability or something depending on how many vassals China has, in reference to it's traditional relationship with neighboring and far-away states.
Yes, Japan has attempted an invasion of Corea in two instances before 1800:
The first instance took place in the 600s, when Yamato Japan attempted to assist Baekje from the Tang-Silla alliance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Baekgang
The second being the Imjin Wars where they were able to gain a foothold on the Corean peninsula for a time but were expelled.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imjin_War
I think the 3 Great Generals historical condition might have more to do with the Sengoku period (15th to 17th century) that produced a wealth of famous military commanders in that time. I still don't think it's a good goal though and would lean in the direction of something more culture-based.
Also, I have a suggestion to make. Shuri/Naha (Okinawa) should spawn as an independent city as it was historically a very important city for maritime trade in the region. They were historically under Chinese influence for most of their history and later became invaded by the Satsuma clan so it could be a good point of contention between China & Japan.
Also a name to contribute for the scientific Chinese power:
The Power of the Scholar-Bureaucracy
EDIT: For the Unique Library/University, Examination Hall.
In the event the scientific UP idea ever gets dropped, I suggest perhaps a power that raises stability or something depending on how many vassals China has, in reference to it's traditional relationship with neighboring and far-away states.
ilduce349
(Financial, Philo)
I didn't know about the Imjin war prior to this but thought Beakgang was in the 500s...
I like the name for the Chinese power.
I aggree with the independ city.
However the problem with the great generals is it requires fighting, and lots of it. They would have to invade China and Korea probably to get there.
Thats why I have a problem with it.
I like the name for the Chinese power.
I aggree with the independ city.
However the problem with the great generals is it requires fighting, and lots of it. They would have to invade China and Korea probably to get there.
Thats why I have a problem with it.
Linkman226
#anarchy
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The only change to Japan, IMO, is Ainu barbs. If they can't settled Hokkaido, as was the case IRL, I suspect they won't aim for Machuria/ Siberia immediately.
EDIT: And Jurchen barbs of course. Can't remember exactly but have they already been implemented?
EDIT: And Jurchen barbs of course. Can't remember exactly but have they already been implemented?
Tomorrow's Dawn
Heroes Never Die
Well, I had an idea for Japan.
What if we had Japan spawn sometime in the 1500s and prior to then, we have four-five independent cities occupying the mass of the island. The human/AI player spawns in Kyoto with a number of troops and the first UHV condition would be to unify Japan by conquering the rest of the independent city states.
It's a little easy, I admit, but at least it is historical.
What if we had Japan spawn sometime in the 1500s and prior to then, we have four-five independent cities occupying the mass of the island. The human/AI player spawns in Kyoto with a number of troops and the first UHV condition would be to unify Japan by conquering the rest of the independent city states.
It's a little easy, I admit, but at least it is historical.
ilduce349
(Financial, Philo)
I was suggesting somethign similar a little back. Just starting in the 1500s
Opera
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What I don't understand is that, in any case, you should want to go after China and Korea. If you're trying to push the player to not expand beyond Japan, then that sucks and that won't be enough to remain competitive I think.
The isolationist part would be hard-pressed to be represented as a UHV since it basically goes against the game. Don't open borders, don't trade techs, etc. IMHO it's better represented as a UP along the lines of +100% trade with your own cities.
Then again, wasn't isolationism a thing only from the Tokugawa shogunate? I'm not sure Japan ever was completely isolationist.
The isolationist part would be hard-pressed to be represented as a UHV since it basically goes against the game. Don't open borders, don't trade techs, etc. IMHO it's better represented as a UP along the lines of +100% trade with your own cities.
Then again, wasn't isolationism a thing only from the Tokugawa shogunate? I'm not sure Japan ever was completely isolationist.
I like the suggestions for the Chinese UP and UB names.
Whether the UP would be actually useful depends on its actual effect, of course, but I'd like to have it make China at least be on par with Europe when those civs spawn in combination with the UU. That should suffice to get at least some effect out of it while you're competing with them, but allows them to overtake you until they're in the Renaissance (the early Renaissance was roughly the technological break-even point).
Now on to Japan: as Linkman already said, it's Rhye's and Fall of Civilization, not Rhye's and Fall of Polities, and the Japanese civilization did exist before the Edo period (with a rather strong Tenno for its time in its early centuries, even), so a spawn in the 1500s doesn't really make sense in my opinion.
I also don't want all Japanese goals to be about post-Meiji Japan, so there's got to be something that represents Edo Japan or earlier. I agree that while the generals goal fits historically, the necessary ingame behavior doesn't really, and I also agree that "don't open borders with anyone and insult everyone who wants to trade resources with you [i.e. act like the Tokugawa AI on a bad day]" doesn't really make a good goal. So you're right that this probably only leaves us with an "acquire X culture in ~1600 AD". I tried to avoid something like that because it's a stupid builderfest, but it's probably the only option.
The only other alternative I could think of (although admittedly it's more Hollywood history than anything) is something espionage related as in RFCA, like "Steal X techs by ~1600 AD". We could also interpret that as adapting Chinese technology into Japan which happened fairly often in early Japan.
I still like the great general goal, maybe it's appropriate for Prussia later on (representing Prussian military theory like Blücher's or the Generalstab in general).
On the historical discussion: it's true that isolationist Japan is an exaggeration that's especially widespread in the Civ4 community due to how Firaxis portrayed them. And Perry's aims with Japan really didn't amount to vassalization. It was just standard gunboat diplomacy to get them to open borders. Oh, I forgot, gunboat diplomacy was only for those evil imperialist Europeans
Whether the UP would be actually useful depends on its actual effect, of course, but I'd like to have it make China at least be on par with Europe when those civs spawn in combination with the UU. That should suffice to get at least some effect out of it while you're competing with them, but allows them to overtake you until they're in the Renaissance (the early Renaissance was roughly the technological break-even point).
Now on to Japan: as Linkman already said, it's Rhye's and Fall of Civilization, not Rhye's and Fall of Polities, and the Japanese civilization did exist before the Edo period (with a rather strong Tenno for its time in its early centuries, even), so a spawn in the 1500s doesn't really make sense in my opinion.
I also don't want all Japanese goals to be about post-Meiji Japan, so there's got to be something that represents Edo Japan or earlier. I agree that while the generals goal fits historically, the necessary ingame behavior doesn't really, and I also agree that "don't open borders with anyone and insult everyone who wants to trade resources with you [i.e. act like the Tokugawa AI on a bad day]" doesn't really make a good goal. So you're right that this probably only leaves us with an "acquire X culture in ~1600 AD". I tried to avoid something like that because it's a stupid builderfest, but it's probably the only option.
The only other alternative I could think of (although admittedly it's more Hollywood history than anything) is something espionage related as in RFCA, like "Steal X techs by ~1600 AD". We could also interpret that as adapting Chinese technology into Japan which happened fairly often in early Japan.
I still like the great general goal, maybe it's appropriate for Prussia later on (representing Prussian military theory like Blücher's or the Generalstab in general).
On the historical discussion: it's true that isolationist Japan is an exaggeration that's especially widespread in the Civ4 community due to how Firaxis portrayed them. And Perry's aims with Japan really didn't amount to vassalization. It was just standard gunboat diplomacy to get them to open borders. Oh, I forgot, gunboat diplomacy was only for those evil imperialist Europeans
Opera
Deity
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I actually quite like the idea of "steal x techs". At least it's more interesting than accumulating culture. You can probably fit the flavour of the generals goal under their UP (which is a free promotion, right?).
Although in that case they might benefit from some espionage boost. Stealing techs to Korea might be okay but China may be a problem due to its size compared to Japan.
Although in that case they might benefit from some espionage boost. Stealing techs to Korea might be okay but China may be a problem due to its size compared to Japan.
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