Deity Isolation Workshop (Stan/Norm/Fractal/NH/NE)

[Pedro78]

Hmm you have a point.. I tend to get obsessed with winning given the worst possible conditions -- or at least the worst possible land. But when I end up winning one of these games, it's usually because of great trades & favorable AI setup -- which means that the game with crap land was not necessarily harder than one with great land. Maybe I have to change my mindset.

The main reason why I like playing with crap land is that it makes for a much more straightforward game. Otoh great land is so much harder to make the most out of, especially when you add in stuff like Mids or Marble. That's why I haven't played the Mao map yet -- it's a map that's rich with opportunities but is a PITA to optimize, especially as nasty barbs add a luck factor that I don't like. Gotta get over it.

Another thing is that I find it much more motivating to play a game where I'm fighting to win, and not to get a fancy win date. I actually find it pretty hard to keep playing a game that you're 95% sure to win after having played to T50, not sure how you deal with this.

If I had one question to ask you, Rusten, I'd ask how you manage to remain motivated and play a game to the end after noticing the mistakes you've made earlier (even small mistakes) -- that's the reason why I drop 99% of my games, because I don't find any appeal to finish a game that is not "good". I know that's wrong, but I just can't get over it.

Oh and I'm ofc interested to see you play the Mao game -- looking forward to some saves to dig in

 

[Lain]

Well, I kind of agree. Of course the idea was to beat the hardest conditions and then, by default, it should be possible to win anything. But I guess there is nothing wrong with using all the resources given by the map to the fullest.

I am still trying to deduce some guide lines though. Make theories about what works and what doesn't instead of extrapolating from single cases. I mean I had this Mansa game recently with 1 AD Astro and totally killed it. Then I play the Mao game and am completely out of my depth. So... what is the best way towards progress?

Currently I am leaning towards playing any start, good or not, and using everything I can. Maybe because I lost the last three games and have to get back into shape. And even a start with quadruple gold poses some questions @1000 AD (production of army) and I am trying to work on the mid-to-late-game, so... I should be able to learn something about it either way, if I just play far enough and commit to games. Which means playing till the end.

So please don't abandon me/us . @Rusten and @Fippy. I want to learn with whatever method you deem fit.

That said I might play the infamous Mao game this week as it's been haunting Lain for so long. And a large reason for that is that everything goes -- just make the best of the start generated.

Yay! My problem with that map doesn't come from refusal of using marble though. It comes from lack of understanding some basic principles. So I really want to see how we use what's there in the best way. I don't want a fixed guide to win. (But a 1000 pages book with applicable theory and exemplary cases would be nice.)

 

[Fippy]

No problem, i like that we sorted this topic out now
Yup the Mao map is very difficult with using marble (we had no objections against that).

Getting over mistakes is certainly difficult (but possible) to learn, motivation problems come from taking ourselves a bit too serious while playing Civ.
Playing gotm and sgotm helped me getting over that, when you make a very bad mistake that affects your whole team and cannot be reloaded, those you are making in games here look harmless. And then you have broken that circle, and put it in better relation
(also works with multiplayer in other games, but for Civ (s)gotm would be my best example)

 

[Izuul]

I wouldn't say the Mao map was too rich with opportunities. Unless you mean all of the different ways to possibly play it. The "good" land (river area) has no food and is hard to defend early making it both difficult to secure early on and slow to get up and running (bad combo obviously).

 

[Pedro78]

Certainly not too rich in opportunities, but it has marble and lots of land. EXP trait is also very strong for this map: low food and lots of forests but you have cheap granaries and workers. It certainly isn't obvious to figure out a good strategy, especially with the barbs, but I'm sure this map has a strong potential, even if Optics & Astro come later than they usually do.

 

[Lain]

Pedro, how did you do this overflow-thingy in the Alex game?

Spoiler :

39 ?

 

[Pedro78]

2whipped Settler @68/100 and worked clams&pigs iirc

 

[Fippy]

Good move cos you need both at this point, settler & Cara.
With settlers creating hammers via food, they allow for more than 30h of.

 

[Pedro78]

That was the idea, 3 cities were settled on Optics turn (last one a bit delayed because I had to build a trireme)

 

[Fippy]

Sooo, a little case for IND am sure you remember this map

We could talk about for hours how safe an Oracle at t57 is ~~
..but it's bringing excitement and different gameplay either way.

(i added forge + factory for IND illusion while building SH & Oracle, and removed them when not. SH going late actually delayed Oracle a bit cos i had hoped for earlier gold while teching PH)

 

[Pedro78]

I've never said that IND was a bad trait. I said it could be very strong in some cases.

Now T57 certainly isn't safe, but it's not a horrible gamble either, and can definitely make the game more fun -- depends on your playstyle.

But here, what are you going to Oracle anyway? Monarchy? Not really useful.. Would be really good if you could Oracle MC or CoL (cheap SPI temples, play around with CS etc.), but it's simply not possible on this map.

But I ofc agree that IND can be very useful on some low-commerce starts

(Oh and btw you went through Meditation even though you have marble -- no ToA failgold grandplan? )

Edit - actually if you go Hunt-AH-Fishing-PH-Writing you might be able to Oracle CoL = hit the jackpot. Have to try some stuff with this map

The thing I dislike the most about the Oracle here is that you might pop some stupid great priest (probably ok if you get only one, but what if every GP you get turns out to be a priest? )

 

[Rusten]

Another thing is that I find it much more motivating to play a game where I'm fighting to win, and not to get a fancy win date. I actually find it pretty hard to keep playing a game that you're 95% sure to win after having played to T50, not sure how you deal with this.

If I had one question to ask you, Rusten, I'd ask how you manage to remain motivated and play a game to the end after noticing the mistakes you've made earlier (even small mistakes) -- that's the reason why I drop 99% of my games, because I don't find any appeal to finish a game that is not "good". I know that's wrong, but I just can't get over it.

Just accept that there's no perfect game and move on. Playing multiplayer and various gamemodes might help because you're forced to dealing with factors outside of the base game throwing a wrench in your plans all the time. Need to be able to reset and come up with the best plan from point X quite often. But overall I enjoy noticing small mistakes, that's how I stop to think and figure things out. Asking why the other path was better and identifying the conditions. They don't cause me to lose motivation in any way.

On the T50 part: I get my kick from figuring out the best solution to a problem. I don't focus so much on the win itself which makes it easy to play games even when they're "decided". Probably because I've played for so many years that the AI rarely poses a challenge. More than 10 years on this forum now! 10!!
Single player is just a relaxing sandbox mode at this point -- if you want a real challenge then go sign up for a MP pitboss on realmsbeyond.

I'd also recommend doing something other than domination/conquest all the time to keep it interesting. Learning what makes a new VC "tick" is fun to me at least. For instance I had a culture phase in BOTM ~2 years ago.

Spoiler :

Real culture that is -- not the espionage garbage (patch please ).

 

[Fippy]

Well Monarchy is useful on all maps with no happy res, imo..Mecca might not be a great cap, but there are 2 green tiles that can be cottaged, and the pigs site has plenty green river (and also plains river). I would probably turn this city into my Bur Cap later with Monarchy, no issues chopping the Palace after border pop as needed (another advantage of IND, costs 50% less).

I dun think priest points would be an issue, sure you might get one but there's worse than 2h5g settled or golden age.
Also you assume all GP come from Mecca which would ofc not be the case.
(i did play as if SPI gets replaced by IND, ofc with both CoL would be much stronger)

 

[Fippy]

A new game, Stalin
He was mentioned at some point as agg leader not played yet.

Spoiler :

Played to turn 50 and happy with this map, some nice stuff to work with but nothing too good.
Already can see many questions and decisions now, looks perfect for training.

 

[Fippy]

Turn 50 thoughts

Spoiler :

So there's stone, but rather far away. I put my overflow beakers into writing, i guess it's not good enuf for any Pyras tries..but you could.
I am thinking that with silver, IND could become useful in another way thou: Forge for +2 total happy, allows skipping Mona.
Also that 1 tile island is interesting, could take 1 floodplains (if no seafood, but maybe even then).
Decided i want slavery and whip my 2nd settler, will be useful later too.
Forgot using another name, so you play as Fippy sowy

 

[Pedro78]

@Rusten that's good advice. What are Pitboss MP and realmsbeyond? How do you sign up for these things?

@Fippy I'll play this as soon as I finish my current game. Trying to play a map to the end for once

Oh and could you turn yields on when you post screenies? Makes it more readable when you don't know the map.

 

[Lain]

I'll play too. Got some saves from your current game, Pedro? Particularly war stuff if possible.

 

[Pedro78]

Well I'm at 800BC right now lol, but I'll play this one to the end no matter what -- or I promise I'll isolate myself completely from any civ stuff for an entire month (would be horrible ). But I can attach the starting save if you want to play. Have a few early game saves aswell. (Didn't post the map here at first partly cos I thought Fippy would find boring AF -- was I right? )

Spoiler :

No one here has ever played a low commerce toku iso before, right?

 

[Lain]

Cool, would be interested in saves

 

[Izuul]

Pitboss was/is the program used to play Civ 4 multiplayer (MP). I don't know a great deal about it other than it can create a game server to host a MP game and it used to be kind of clunky. I'm guessing it's really showing it's age these days unless it's seen improvements.

Realms Beyond is a really old website/forum dedicated to the Civ franchise. They used to organize big GOTM type games over there and i believe they called them "epics." They were typically a little more role-playing style, as was the site in general (the players and the information over there were less advanced than on this site). They also used to organize some big MP games from time to time. I haven't been over on that site in several years so I don't know what kind of following they have at this point.