Deportation: Millions must go!

Birdjaguar

Hanafubuki
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Trump says deportation is coming and soon. Millions will be rounded up, ensconced in camps and then sent back to where they came from.
  • Can he do it?
  • What will it cost?
  • Is it legal?
  • How will it affect the US economy?
  • How will it affect the many local communities where all those millions now live?
  • Will there be push back?
It is already on the minds of New Mexicans.

What alternatives do NM agricultural producers have if they cannot rely on undocumented workers? Experts answer
BY WRITER NAME JOURNAL STAFF WRITER
There’s no doubt undocumented immigrants play a role in New Mexico’s workforce. They make up about 53,200 of the state’s workforce, or nearly 4%, according to figures provided by the American Immigration Council, a national advocacy group. They contribute $312 million in local, state and federal taxes, with about $1.1 billion in spending power. Undocumented workers nationwide also make up close to half of the crop farmworkers in the U.S., according to a report from the U.S. Department of Agriculture. While figures don’t exist for New Mexico, they play a significant role in picking crops like chile, onions and pecans. But if President-elect Donald Trump goes through with plans for mass deportations of undocumented workers, that could heavily affect New Mexico’s agricultural producers. That raises the question: What alternatives do agricultural producers in New Mexico have if they cannot rely on undocumented workers?

The Journal asked that question to a couple of experts in the state. Here are their responses:

Carlos Carpio-Ochoa, professor and head of New Mexico State University’s Department of Agricultural Economics and Agricultural Business “In economics, we distinguish between shortterm and longterm adjustments. In the short term, farmers could offer higher wages to attract documented workers from other sectors of the economy, such as construction or hospitality. However, wage increases are limited by the prices farmers receive for their products and other production costs. Another option is mechanization, if available. Finally, farmers may rely on current legal programs to bring in foreign workers. They will need to weigh the costs and benefits of each option carefully, but in most cases, all options are likely to result in higher production costs in the short term. The government could reduce some costs, for example, by reducing the burden of foreign worker programs or financing labor-replacing machinery. In the long term, where there is more room for adaptation, there could be a shift in farmed products, with a move toward less labor-intensive agricultural goods or a greater reliance on machinery. The U.S. agricultural sector has always been at the forefront of discovery and innovation. It can take time and effort, but the sector could adapt long term.”

Kelly O’Donnell, local economist and Homewise’s chief research and policy officer
“In the short term, New Mexico’s agricultural producers have no economically viable alternatives to immigrant labor. The federal government’s visa programs are already insufficient to fill the labor gap. Raising wages and improving working conditions could increase the number of U.S. citizens willing to do this difficult work, but those costs would be passed on to consumers and food would be much more expensive. In the longer term, technology could start to fill some of the gap, but this partial solution would take years to implement and would not forestall the food shortage and price spikes that would result from the loss of immigrant labor
 
We have some visa here and have become reliant on migrants to do a lot of agriculture work. Theoretically they get sane benefits but there's all sorts of shocking exploitation stories.

It's suppressed the wages as I found out what they were offering when I used to do it vs now.

Whoever does it needs to be paid more thus means cost more to the consumer.
 
Heh. My teenage crop walking self is finding an enormous amount of schadenfreude watching people squirm at the prospect that beaners might have to be paid. "How quickly can we mechanize so they come back to scrubbing my floors?"

I'm just eagerly waiting to see how the public will blame the resulting price movements on Democrats
 
He's not going to do it just like he didn't build the wall.
Didn't he, however, build at the very least an overpriced ineffective fence (I was under the impression he did or at least segment of it or projected it)?

I expect the same. They'll find some large but not extremly large sum (relative to the number of estimated illegal migrants, def under 500k) of easy-to-find and easy-to-convict and easy-to-deport migrants, send them on a free cruise to the nearest spot that's officially Mexico with no security they won't just come back, it'll cost a lot of money and they'll portray it on X like he just resolved migration crisis and use it as an argument of fullfilled promise for the next century.
 
Can he do it?
The way he could do it would be to criminalise employers of people without the right to work. He will not because that would hurt the people he wants to help.
BY WRITER NAME JOURNAL STAFF WRITER
I have to say, is this an attempt at protecting The Albuquerque Journal, and Matthew Narvaiz, to punish them for their paywall or to protect us? You could link to an paywall avoider or even a news aggregator.
In the short term, New Mexico’s agricultural producers have no economically viable alternatives to immigrant labor. The federal government’s visa programs are already insufficient to fill the labor gap. Raising wages and improving working conditions could increase the number of U.S. citizens willing to do this difficult work, but those costs would be passed on to consumers and food would be much more expensive I .
I am not advocating for the criminalisation of migration, but I think it is a bad argument to use. If you are going to make it, I think one (and I mean Matthew Narvaiz not you) should make it in numbers. Just grabbing a few numbers from google, the current US agricultural wage bill is about 2.3% of the current US food bill, or $8/week resident. We could double wages and most people would not notice it if the increase was passed on directly. Is this the "much more expensive" they are talking about? Or have they got something else in mind?

Spoiler Working :
Code:
US Farm Hired Workers 850,000 [1]
Wage Rate $18.5 (?) [2]
Houts/Month Guess 40 hours/week, 170/month?  Probably a bit low, but if we include the off season then perhaps?

Average monthly cost of groceries per person, take middle state:
25    New Jersey    Newark (277,100)    $343.67 [3]

US Population 335,893,238 [4]

US grocery bill = 343.67 * 335893238 = $115,436,429,103
US Farm wage bill = 18.5 * 850000 * 170 = $2,673,250,000
US Farm wage bill as proportion of US grocery bill = 2673250000 / 115436429103 = 0.0232 or 2.32%
US Farm wage bill per US resident = 2673250000 / 335893238 = $7.96

[1] US Farm Hired Workers https://www.nass.usda.gov/Charts_and_Maps/Farm_Labor/fl_qtrwk.php
[2] Wage Rate https://www.nass.usda.gov/Charts_and_Maps/Farm_Labor/fl_allwg.php
[3] Average monthly cost of groceries https://www.zippia.com/advice/average-cost-of-groceries-by-state/
[4] US Population https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States
 
I don't think he has to do much about the deportation issue - perhaps some symbolic deportations, such as mentioned above. It's a side dish to the main course - the border security. Which currently allows rivers of illegals cross the southern border. So when Trump solves (or appear to solve) border security by throwing considerable military and civilian resources at the border, and the statistics will show rapid reduction in crossings - he'll declare victory and move on to popularising bitcoin or whatever his sponsors and sympathisers currently want him to do.
 
Rapid expulsion of millions of people from a society generally kills a hell of a lot of them. It's hard to think of comparable scales of forced population transfers which haven't.
 
What alternatives do southern states have if they cannot rely on slave labour?

Seems like a spurious comparison given that enslaved people generally escaped slavery when they had a chance while, in your own words, "rivers" of people cross the southern border hoping for work in the US
 
If they actually cared about illegal penalize the employers.

Here it's very hard to get a job if you don't have the right documents.

You're not going to do well looking for under the table work.

Shut down the pull effect.
 
Just looking at the numbers, the US has a little under 350 million people and they're talking about expulsion of between 10 or 15 million people. It's hard to imagine how it could forcibly expel every 30th person in the country without some very serious humanitarian consequences.
 
Just looking at the numbers, the US has a little under 350 million people and they're talking about expulsion of between 10 or 15 million people. It's hard to imagine how it could forcibly expel every 30th person in the country without some very serious humanitarian consequences.

Yup. Be better going after the employers. Get caught hiring them massive fines or business closed down/seized.

If they can't get jobs they'll either self deport or cut future flow to a trickle.
 
  • Can he do it?
the endeavour needed is so vast and costly there's no way it can go down without tremendous effort. i don't really see it as feasible. too costly and too big. nevermind the political issues (agricultural sector)
  • What will it cost?
a tremendous amount of money. bureaucrats for processing costs money. military (if he implements it) costs money. just locating them costs money. it's a nightmare effort.
edit: nevermind the probable murders on the way there
  • Is it legal?
myea iirc it wants to use like an obscure ancient law that hasn't been implemented in forever, which is a stretch and kind of contrary to case law (while laws are laws, most legal principles i know note that if laws aren't enforced in 300 years, they kinda aren't on the books anymore and all)

like at least until recent it was legal for danes, if øresund froze over and swedes were crossing, to go out there and beat them with sticks

however... it can be made legal. reps control everything
  • How will it affect the US economy?
agriculture will be destroyed. dunno about the rest of the sectors.
  • How will it affect the many local communities where all those millions now live?
complicated question that i don't quite know. from my perspective, it will destroy
  • Will there be push back?
there already is

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so it may actually happen, it may not. i'm sure there's political will for it, but it's so vast and costly i don't even see it as feasibly realistic. what i think will happen is that trump is still gonna deport thousands and they say he deported everyone and that it is a huge political victory for american golden dreams and glorious days and such
 
Seems like a spurious comparison given that enslaved people generally escaped slavery when they had a chance while, in your own words, "rivers" of people cross the southern border hoping for work in the US

These people will dream of and will gladly escape economic exploitation when they'll have a slightest chance. The fact that there is a line of people doesn't mean that the job is great and they are actually "hoping" to keep that job. They're desperate. And Uncle Sam, represented by the "expert" in the article, theorizes, like an aristocrat, that “In the short term, New Mexico’s agricultural producers have no economically viable alternatives to immigrant labor". I get it, immigrant labour is cheap and makes an oligarch richer faster. But the river is about to thin out, so, New Mexico, watch out.
 
I'm just eagerly waiting to see how the public will blame the resulting price movements on Democrats
Disruption caused by trying to deal with nearly half a decade of non enforcement.

The frog notices the hot coal.

Dunno. Seems as likely as any. Standard deregulation talk works, too.
 
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