Did Trump leak his own tax returns?

[Gori the Grey]

No, it's more than that. But I'll work it out fully and share it with the whole group.

Thanks to you, though, because this new line of consideration is partly owing to your resistance to some of my claims over in the wiretap thread.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Serious answer: It's becoming clearer and clearer to me that I've started a project, mostly in a conversation with metalhead in the wiretap thread, of exploring the possibility that among the things that Trump's unconventional presidency is going to do is redefine what a "good job" as president involves. Conventional political commentators sit there and say "oh, he's shredding his credibility; he'll at some point need that as president, and then he'll see." I'm entertaining the possibility that he'll turn conventional wisdom like that (it's just one example; I'll eventually compile a list) on his head, as he did lots of conventional wisdom about campaigning. That's why I worked out thirteen ways the wiretap tweets may help him, however much they may end up hurting him. (And by the way, part of this initiative will eventually involve an unconventional answer to "help him toward what?")

Thanks Gori... this really helps me distill an analogy I keep making about Trump setting fires to distract from previous fires he's set. Cause conventional wisdom says "Yeah but eventually he'll burn down the whole forest and that would be a bad thing for him"... but what you are saying makes sense... What if he wants to burn the forest down so that he can build a hotel casino there, or the forest is blocking the view of the river from his hotel casino? It reminds me of when Marvin Martian tells Bugs Bunny he's going to blow up the Earth because "it obstructs my view of Venus" You hear the "blow up the Earth" and say "Pfft terrible idea!"... but its not... not to him anyway. As you say "help him toward what?"

I get what you're saying. I think the essential question you're attempting to answer is, "Can a president man be successful merely by offering the appearance of success?"

Fixed that for you... and Yes. Its so much clearer to me phrased this way. Remember the famous John Oliver takedown of Trump when the moniker "Drumpf" was born? The whole point (or the main point) was exactly the answer to your question.

 

[warpus]

Trump has money, in America that means he's successful.

 

[Gori the Grey]

What if he wants to burn the forest down ?

I have it on good authority that his aim is to "deconstruct the administrative state."

In his ceaseless aspersions against agencies, his purges of career public servants, his failure to fill government posts, his budget, etc. he seems to be setting about his declared aim. I'll grant you, it's odd business for a public servant to be about. And what we've seen isn't the worst of what I fear.

Again, I'll elaborate once I've worked it all out.

 

[Bamspeedy]

-snip-

You do realize for the citizenship process you need to submit more than just last year's tax return? (3 years if married to a US citizen, 5 years if not).

So he would need at least 3 years of 'perfect' (not gambling on trying to get away with cheats) tax returns.

It’s unusual that the Trumps were caught by a tax that predominantly hits earners in the $400,000 to $1.2 million gross income range, said Popovich of JPMorgan Chase. Far wealthier taxpayers can typically avoid its effects because capital gains income -- a mainstay for the top 0.1 percent -- largely escapes the AMT.

Perhaps on other years he didn't have to pay the AMT, thus his tax bill wasn't as high. So he shows the year where he pays the most so he can say "See, I pay my share of taxes".

The year before he paid far less in taxes.

However, the two pages from 2005 may well provide a clue about something else: Trump’s federal tax bill for 2004. The document lists estimated tax payments of $13,291,993 that Trump made in 2005 -- and under federal rules in place at the time, those payments had to total 110 percent of his 2004 tax liability.

That means Trump probably had a federal tax liability of roughly $12.1 million in 2004, according to Matthew Morris, a tax attorney at law firm Bowditch & Dewey LLP, who reviewed the 2005 document and made the calculations. It’s also possible that the estimated tax payments were overpayments, but that seems unlikely, Morris said.

https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/...-item-on-trump-s-1040-alternative-minimum-tax

 

[Sommerswerd]

Also... AFAIK, he has not acknowledged this return as accurate and legitimate. IIRC he actually preemptively referred to it as "fake news". Sure the FOX is FOXy-dancing over it because it shows he paid taxes thereby "settling" the matter in FOXyland terms, but we don't even have confirmation that this isn't just a forgery or fabrication. Its just the two cover pages afterall. Trump (or whoever) could have literally made this on TurboTax, printed it out, NOT filed it... and then done a real tax return for 2015 with all different numbers. That's the beauty of leaking it... you don't have to acknowledge its accuracy, and frankly can deny it if its harmful, but at the same time, you get to claim victim status for it being released AND get all the FOXy-love if its favorable.

 

[Gori the Grey]

No, the WH's statement (which was released before RM's show) both acknowledged the legitimacy of the return and complained of RM being fake news. I owe you all a limerick on that bit of doublethink.

"You know you are desperate for ratings when you are willing to violate the law to push a story about two pages of tax returns from over a decade ago.

"Before being elected President, Mr Trump was one of the most successful businessmen in the world with a responsibility to his company, his family and his employees to pay no more tax than legally required.

"That being said, Mr. Trump paid $38 million dollars even after taking into account large scale depreciation for construction, on an income of more than $150 million dollars, as well as paying tens of millions of dollars in other taxes such as sales and excise taxes and employment taxes and this illegally published return proves just that.

"Despite this substantial income figure and tax paid, it is totally illegal to steal and publish tax returns.

"The dishonest media can continue to make this part of their agenda, while the President will focus on his, which includes tax reform that will benefit all Americans."

I wish RM had spent more time considering the question of authenticity, even despite the WH confirmation.

 

[Sommerswerd]

As demonstrated time and time again..."the WH statements" are about as consistent with Trump's subjective opinion as my subjective determination of what we will have for dinner tonight is with what my kids think we will/should have.

So until I get more returns with all the itemized deduction forms to corroborate, I'm dismissing the returns as fabricated and self-leaked for propaganda purposes.

 

[Gori the Grey]

By the way, one inquiry I'd like to see made. I don't think RM's announcements indicated what year's tax returns she'd be treating, just that she had tax returns (don't know whether DC Report was more specific).

That the WH could release in advance of RM's show the figures from the return she did turn out to treat could itself be evidence that Trump himself leaked it.

 

[Commodore]

So until I get more returns with all the itemized deduction forms to corroborate, I'm dismissing the returns as fabricated and self-leaked for propaganda purposes.

Okay, you are certainly within your rights to do that, but know that you run the risk of looking just as foolish as those who dismissed Obama's Hawaiian birth certificate as fabricated.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Okay, you are certainly within your rights to do that, but know that you run the risk of looking just as foolish as those who dismissed Obama's Hawaiian birth certificate as fabricated.

You know, for a guy who repeatedly bemoans other peoples lack of any sense of humor...

EDIT: I originally started that post with "Ummmm Me Hulk can make'em double-think too!"... but I thought it was unnecessary and deleted it.

 

[Zelig]

That Trump is out of his depth, has no clue what he's doing, is just relying on unconsidered, childish antics that worked for him as a brander and an eccentric Manhattan personality.

I've been saying this since forever: https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...ee-now-stop-trump.563499/page-2#post-14175184

 

[Gori the Grey]

Right. A lot of us have. But the new thing I'm working to add is that he makes being out of his depth, not having any clue what he's doing and relying on unconsidered, childish antics work for him (including politically, with a broad enough definition of "politics").

 

[Commodore]

You know, for a guy who repeatedly bemoans other peoples lack of any sense of humor...

EDIT: I originally started that post with "Ummmm Me Hulk can make'em double-think too!"... but I thought it was unnecessary and deleted it.

That would have been funny though.

And who says I didn't see the humor in your post? Maybe I was hoping we'd do a little bit where we treat this whole thing like Trump's version of the "birther" movement.

 

[warpus]

Right. A lot of us have. But the new thing I'm working to add is that he makes being out of his depth, not having any clue what he's doing and relying on unconsidered, childish antics work for him (including politically, with a broad enough definition of "politics").

I mean, that's what his supporters like, they can relate to his approach because that's how they approach life, for the most part. Not to insult Trump supporters, that is not my intent, but they pretty much voted in "one of their own", the only difference being that he is one of them but also happens to be rich.

 

[Gori the Grey]

. . . and therefore isn't one of them. As almost all of his actual policies and initiatives (budget) indicate.

 

[warpus]

. . . and therefore isn't one of them. As almost all of his actual policies and initiatives (budget) indicate.

The see him as one of their own though, because in a lot of these people's minds they are not poor but rather "rich people who are temporarily poor"

 

[Lexicus]

. . . and therefore isn't one of them. As almost all of his actual policies and initiatives (budget) indicate.

This is true of course, but it ignores the point that I've brought up before, which is that Trump's blue-collar supporters see their main class opponents as being the white-collar professionals, not rich people like Trump. This was compounded by the fact that Trump himself acts and seems more like a blue-collar guy than a white-collar guy, while Hillary might as well have been an avatar of the liberal white-collar professional class.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Right to both of the above. The aspire to his wealth. They resent the college-educated middle managers directly above them.

 

[Angst]

Maybe its the "best" one he had... or the one where he paid the most income taxes... or the only one in the last 15 years where he actually paid a significant percentage of income in taxes... or the only one in the last 15 years where he showed that much income...

More questions then answers... swirling ... swirling... swirling it goes... where it stops... everyone knows...

EDIT: Ha! JR beat me to it.