DocT5- The RaR Deity Trial

Good trading Pfeffersack! It's good to know where the iron is! The next city should go there, but only after a short and desicive war against Babylon.

In my opinion we must gather as much military as possible and strike Babylon as soon as possible.

Build only catapults (3-4 should be enough) and am.champions into a stack and then take two tribal guardsmen to defend our stack and go for it. We must take initiative, otherwise this won't develop into anything good.

Let's draw war plans and go for it! :mischief:
 
Out of curiosity, why don't any of our units show up in the screenshot?

I think I agree with Tinkez. Babylon is at war and should be weaker. I would like to get to them before they make peace and grow more in strength.

I suggest we keep cities as they tend to be small in size. If we can hurt Babylon badly, then culture won't be an issue (and if they are still at war with Persia when we attack they may be dead).
 
(Greebley, cities appear empty because 'Show Units over Cities' is disabled)

Sioux, 1750BC

Oh well, at first look I thought we managed to screw up this game big time already, especially the war preparations and research. ;)
But after playing, situation looks a lot brighter. :)

Nevertheless, a few things I heavily disagree on:

·Building Workers from the Capital is an absolute :nono: . Settlers, not great, but sometimes needed. Workers, NEVER! Especially when you need units like mad, and by all means need the Great Library, thus one city must be beefed up in size and structures as far as possible.
·What makes this so surreal is when another city builds regular Champions instead :smoke:. Bison River could have pumped out a Champ every turn while still growing for several turns. Wounded Knee is capped at size 2 without border expansion…a monument instead of two near useless regular Champs, and this city could build a Worker or even Cultivator already. Especially since we need to pull in the Sugar ASAP anyway…
Regular units hurt even more since we’re already paying unit support.
·Research: Mathematics was a gamble, but worked out well. No problem with that. After that, we should have headed for Dynasticism; however, while we did research Urbanization, we still lacked Ritualism (dead cheap, I bet it would have been possibly to get in a Math trade; and would have revealed Incense) and Writing (more expensive to buy than research, because of the Embassies).
·We definitely missed the window of opportunity for a war against Babylon. Checking for their Gov as indicator when they’ll have Spears is a good idea in general; but obviously, we would have needed to strike exactly when they’re in Anarchy, not start building up our forces. A Deity Civ in Monarchy and Golden Age should be able to research Bronze Working in two or three turns, while pumping out 2.2.1 Bowman in insane numbers.

The Save

Report:

Veto 2 of 3 builds ;) ; no Workers from the capital (Champ instead), Wounded Knee needs a border expansion more than everything (Monument),

IBT:
Bowman defeats something, if Hammu wasn’t in a GA already, now he is.

Turn 1: 1725
Whack Barb, Elite Champ.

Turn 3: 1675
IBT:
Wounded Knee completes Monument
Barbs kill German Clan in the N.

Turn 4: 1650
Evacuate WK to absorb the 2 Barbarian Horses (didn’t work completely btw, one Horses kept moving toward Bison River, but could be slayed for the loss of a Champ)
IBT: Urbanization-> Ritualism
Turn 5: 1625
Declare on Persia, move in: Reg TG, 2 reg Champs, 1 Elite Champ, 1 Vet Champ
I mean, if you have to choose between a Golden-Aging Civ right next to you with Spears and Bowman, and a far away Civ with TGs and Horses next to our borders, what would you do?

Turn 6: 1600
Capture Ashur. Was size 1, but expanded borders (see below). Waste the reg Champs first to take some HPs off the 2 TGs, we’re over the limit anyway.
Risk 2 Champs against Barbs, and the RNG is on our side.

Turn 8: 1550
IBT: Ritualism->Writing

Turn 9: 1525
We have Incense near Little Bighorn

Turn 10: 1500
Get a Slave from a Barb Horse in the Jungles S of Little Bighorn, but the Champ is a lost case.
Make peace with Persia, getting us – sit tight! – Mysticism, Caste System, Fermentation and Boat Building for 2gpt and 10gp

NOTES:
*Cultivator should by all means grab the Iron, escort him well; at least 3 units. Next Cultivator to the Gold.
*Capital needs Shrine, Granary, Palace Gardens. We can afford one Hardy from it for the Gold, but only one. Let me emphasize it again:
If someone dares to build anything but Infra (production boosters, Shrine, Granary), the Palace Gardens and units (but only when we really need them!) from the Capital, I will get *really* angry.
Remember, we cannot prebuild the Glib. We need to make 25+spt in a city to really have a shot, and the 80sp for the Library already in the box when we get Literature. Note we have 2 SCI Civs nearby, with Libraries at 24sp.
*Research: Dynasticism. Then straight to Literature. Try to trade for Construction by all means; trade away all required techs we’re eventually up in the lower branch (the AI will head for the upper techs first), but be careful with optional things like Drama.
*Ashur would be a good place for the FP (with 3 of those available, don’t wait to get it up ASAP in a 2nd ring city). If we decide on that, move the Gold Town 1 S.

Siuox1.jpg


Some general notes on Deity RaR

Compared to c3c Diety:
About equally difficult as long as everybody is in Chiefdom;
for a very short period (after Monarchy is spread around) you can outexpand the AI (they have to adapt to the more expensive Settlers);
from that until we get Crop Rotation, it will go downhill. Really downhill. Military situation looks brighter, but AI expansion and Growth compared to yours feels more insane than unmodded Sid! With their growth bonus on Deity, they’ll have lots of size 12+ cities…if we have one at size 8, we’re lucky. They also will outreseach us like nothing.
Once we can irrigate, we will catch up with ease (unless we are attacked by too many Cuirassiers). From that moment, it will get easier; the endgame will be a lot less tedious than regular Deity, simply because advanced units are so expensive even for the AI. No 50+ units SoDs, quality and proper tactics matter more. If we can field a single Tank Army, they game should be in the bag.
Note this applies for an AGR Civ; a SEA Civ on Archipelago feels different (should be able to keep up in techs, but will fall back even more in size). Neither AGR nor Sea, ouch.

Can we make it without the Great Library?
Seriously, no. This is not the usual pessimism; without familiarity with the mod, I’m convinced it is impossible. I think I could do it by pointy stick (the key are mass upgrades to Cataphracts), but that requires a lot of experience with RaR.
Could be a challenging concept for the next SG, btw :)

The expanded cultural borders of Ashur:
It’s impossible that it came by structures, they must have sacrificed a Slave. But: You should get only 2cp from a Slave. However, I’ve seen that several times already, so I’m convinced there’s a bug: The AI will always get 10cp from sacrificing, regardless of the settings – only the Human is affected from them. So far, I wasn’t able to verify that (simply because I never had an Embassy or peace treaty); if you observe an odd border expansion like the one of Ashur (which should have happened immediately upon capture, in the AI movement phase, not the production phase!), by all means keep a save.
 
Doc Tsiolkovski said:
(...)
Nevertheless, a few things I heavily disagree on:

·Building Workers from the Capital is an absolute :nono: . Settlers, not great, but sometimes needed. Workers, NEVER! Especially when you need units like mad, and by all means need the Great Library, thus one city must be beefed up in size and structures as far as possible.
·What makes this so surreal is when another city builds regular Champions instead :smoke:. Bison River could have pumped out a Champ every turn while still growing for several turns. Wounded Knee is capped at size 2 without border expansion…a monument instead of two near useless regular Champs, and this city could build a Worker or even Cultivator already. Especially since we need to pull in the Sugar ASAP anyway…
Regular units hurt even more since we’re already paying unit support.
·Research: Mathematics was a gamble, but worked out well. No problem with that. After that, we should have headed for Dynasticism; however, while we did research Urbanization, we still lacked Ritualism (dead cheap, I bet it would have been possibly to get in a Math trade; and would have revealed Incense) and Writing (more expensive to buy than research, because of the Embassies).
·We definitely missed the window of opportunity for a war against Babylon. Checking for their Gov as indicator when they’ll have Spears is a good idea in general; but obviously, we would have needed to strike exactly when they’re in Anarchy, not start building up our forces. A Deity Civ in Monarchy and Golden Age should be able to research Bronze Working in two or three turns, while pumping out 2.2.1 Bowman in insane numbers.
(...)

@ capital building: Sorry, clear mistake.I will keep your "what (not) to build list" in mind when playing next time
@ wounded knee: Was too focussed on building more champs (since city had exact production 5 for a two-turn build). So the monument doesn't come in my mind.Also didn't know regular units are so problematic on Deity...
@ research/trading: I tried to get Masonry and Scrape Mining first, because you have pointed them out as must-have techs.Then my intention was to trade for ritualism (reason was making incense visible,too)...the problem was lacking cash; only possible with gpt (and I want to avoid that because of the war preperations).But ok, a more experienced player would have seen war against Babylon wasn't the best option this time, so the trade would have been fine.
 
On empty cities: I thought it might be something like that, but I couldn't remember that as an option. Shows how often I use it

To me the key reason not to build workers from the capitol is that it is the only town with barracks. It is therefore "unique" in a way that a city never is in normal civ.

I am not sure I agree on "missing the boat" with babylon (I didn't play recent turns). Attacking too early is usually a bigger mistake than waiting. You get bad RNG and it can be a disaster, so if your point was we should have attacked earlier, I am not sure I agree with that. However, if your point was we should have been building more champions in the capital; well that one I do agree on.

I am dubious on your claim that the GLib is absolutely required. On the other hand, I don't want to make the game needlessly difficult and have to play catch-up, so totallly agree to go for it. In DyP, the GLib was not too hard to get because the AI couldn't handle the concept of needing a building in a city to build the wonder. Is the conquest AI better at this? I would have guessed the GLib would be easyish to get provided you start it ASAP.
 
However, if your point was we should have been building more champions in the capital; well that one I do agree on.
Exactly. I think we could have gotten 6-8 Champs and strike once they revolt; we were about 10 turns to late. Since I saw they have Spears, and quite a number of Bowmen running around, we clearly were too late. And, even with the smaller forces needed for Persia, we paid already 3gpt support...make that -3gpt with 25gp, unless we wanted to delay research noticable.

The GLib: The Deity RaR AI Civs do much better here than Emperor DyP. Literature comes much later now, by that time the AI capitals are huge, with all terrain improved. Lost the race about 1/3 of the time so far.
If we could win without it, is not really the question (a human with enough artillery never fails); it's more if we can survive without it - Spears and Cats, not even with MWs, are not really a match for large numbers of Cuirassiers...
If you don't go for the GL, you need to be highly aggressive. Digging in isn't possible against AIs an era ahead. But the Military tech tree is a bit wicked, nothing most players will do correctly the first time.
 
Doc Tsiolkovski said:
(The expanded cultural borders of Ashur:
It’s impossible that it came by structures, they must have sacrificed a Slave. But: You should get only 2cp from a Slave. However, I’ve seen that several times already, so I’m convinced there’s a bug: The AI will always get 10cp from sacrificing, regardless of the settings – only the Human is affected from them. So far, I wasn’t able to verify that (simply because I never had an Embassy or peace treaty); if you observe an odd border expansion like the one of Ashur (which should have happened immediately upon capture, in the AI movement phase, not the production phase!), by all means keep a save.

I'm playing with the french, who are industrious.
I already noted something :
1/ when I capture slaves, I can upgrade them for 0gc to serf. :)
2/ If I sacrifice such a foreign serf, I gain 20 culture points in the city. :D

I find this very useful, but I don't know if either of these were intended.
maybe an related process is at play in your situation.

my two cents.
 
First >>THE SAVE<<

Turnlog
(0) 1500BC: Preturn

IBT:
Little Bighorn Cultivator - Granary
This is a risk as another unit would be better normally. But we have nowhere else to get settlers.

(1) 1475BC:
A scout ends up in range of a barb horse.

IBT:
Bison River Forge - Granary.
The Babylonians are coming. :(

(2) 1450BC:
Quiet

IBT:
Babylon completes Hanging Gardens.

(3) 1425BC:
The Babylonians are definitely going somewhere.

IBT:
Wounded Knee Worker housing - Tribal Guardsman.

(4) 1400BC:
Founded Oglala near iron - worker housing.
Dismantled a barb camp for 25g

(5) 1375BC:
Quiet

IBT:
Lear writing research Mythology. Everything else requires dynasticism. Mythology is a required tech for Literature of course, and we may be able to get it first.
Persia completes stonehenge

(6) 1350BC:
All Quiet

IBT:
Bison River Granary - cultivator

(7) 1325BC:
Quiet

(8) 1300BC:
MM Bison river to increase shields for a couple of turns to get settler quicker.

(9) 1275BC:
Uncover Arbela (Persian). There a 3 workers there just asking to be captured - Had it been single player I would have done it.

IBT:
Bison River cultivator - Palace Gardens.
Ashur Forge - Worker Housing
Wounded Knee - Guardsman - Forge

(10) 1250BC:
Start one of the southern champions back north to meet the cultivator coming south.

Wounded Knee is MM'd to grow next turn.
Very farmers gambit type set of turns, but we need cities now. We obviously missed the boat with the champions who are little better than MP's and explorers now.

Good luck to the next player.

No screenshot. The only thing of note is that there is a location that will take the gold hill and an iron, but we will need some quick culture in the city that takes the spot.

Sorry I'm a little late. The server appeared to be down when I tried A few hours ago.
 
Preturn: Following after Madbax is just like old times. It seems I often followed after him when we played together. Hi Madbax :wavey:
I change away from the palace gardens. I never liked them much. I think units will be a priority. Not sure on the granary over the forge, but leave it as is.

Early: Decide to build a Hardy Cultivator in Wounded knee. The reason is that we are running negative money. Only 1 unit per town support means very few units start killing our cash. We also cannot raise cash over 50% to compensate. Hmm.. No point in building up units at this point if we can't afford to keep them. Switch the capitol too.

Dangit! The gold spot Madbax mentioned is claimed almost immediately by Germany.

Mid: Several wonders are completed. Looks like we might not get the Exotic wood. Our settler can't go through the jungle. I am force to settle near our other towns.
Get Mythology first. It doesn't get us Dynasticism of course. I trade Myth to Germany for Sailing and Wheel. Trade it to Babylon for 103 gold. Trade it to Persia for Slave trade. Start research on Dynasticism. It will be much cheaper to research it ourselves (in 10).

Oglala starts the slave trade it will take a bit to build but we can't lose it to another civ and Oglala is shield rich and food poor.
Build HunkPapa in a less than ideal spot.

Late: Barbarians are causing problems with settling to the South. Babylon is sending around a boat and will probably grab a spot themselves.
Worse than I thought - they are going to grab our close spot with the two game... No we sort of grabbed it but again the town spot is terrible.



Notes:
Whoops, I also went over by one turn. Sorry about that. Turns go so fast this early.

We are nearly out places to settle I am building a chariot which is a massive 40 shields for a 2-1-2 unit. However it upgrades nicely to knight for 70 shields which is 5-2-2 or some such.

We can try for the exotic wood. I placed a town somewhat close so the AI hasn't settled on the far side yet.

One town is build a temple. If we build 3 temples we can go for Chichen Itza and get free courthouses in all cities.

Not really pleased with my turn, but not sure there was much we could do.

Dynasticism in 4.
 
Ok, it seems to be my turn again.

I took a look on the save and here are some of my initial thoughts:

- Chichen Itza sounds good, that should help us a lot, but it is a big project. That has to be team decision if we aim for that ( Instead of military route?)

- We're 4 turns to Dynasticism, I'll revolt as soon as we get that. All our neighbours are already in Democracy! :eek:

- Slave Trade currently being built in Oglala, which is 2 population city without growth, the wonder is due in 38turns. The town can be modified to get growth, but that drops the time to 95turns :( That city should have built a harbor (cheap!) to get more food before starting that wonder, IMHO. Now we're already 15 shields over that. Shall we keep this route, or go first for temple / harbor -> then Chichen Itza?

- There is a worker moved next to Ogala to Iron, but that square can be reached by a barb horse just nearby? :confused: I can pull out the tribal guardsman from Ogala, but that leaves the city without protection -> if the barb attacks, we'll lose all our shields already put to the Slave Trade. Other very possible situation is that we'll lose the worker. :eek: (of course the barb can go to Little bighorn too)

- The Hardy Cultivator from Wounded Knee will go to exotic woods trying to beat the Germans there.

I will play my turns today, so if anyone has any comments on the Slave Trade / Chichen Itza questions, feel free to comment.
 
Free Unit support in DYP/Rar has more significance IMO. One of the reasons I didn't build units was becuase we have to get to lit within around ten turns of the AI, and we can't afford units AND research.

:wavey: Hi Greebley. It always did, and it still does make me nervous when you are following me, ever since Nad's training game.
 
I would prefer the Chichen Itza.Not really because I thinks its effects are superior in our situation (I would rate the effcts here as nearly equal), but in nearly all the RAR games I have played the AI tends to build the CI later than the Slave Trade.So I see more chances to get it...but maybe thats an assumption which doesn't hold water on Deity...
 
I change away from the palace gardens. I never liked them much.

They prolly sucked in DyP. In RaR, they're FANTASTIC. Tourism Bonus! Thus, you need to build them as soon as possible. Even the Forbidden Gardens are usually still worth it.

Chichen Itza? Slave Trade? A new case of Wonder addiction;) ? Veto. Dumping shields in wonders that will obsolete in no time, or cause happiness problems (though since the code for Luxuries was reworked for c3c, this is no big issue in peacetime - but added to WW, it hurts badly), is absolutely not worth it. Many Small Wonders are far superior.
The next Great Wonder I see us building is either the Encyclopedia (if we need it), or Smith's (a must-have).

On builds:
*Capital should get a Slave Market, another 25% production booster (may need a Shrine before). But please get the Gardens first, they really pay out.
*Chariots or Horses for future upgrades are indeed a good idea.
*No more Worker Housings, they'll obsolete soon.
*Concentrate Workforce around the Capital, everything that will receive a Mine should be roaded already.
*Revolt ASAP, no question.
*Try to get hold of Construction and Civil Engineering. Those are the only two techs we really need. Forget Demo/Rep for a while. Unless we have commercial buildings, we won't really benefit, shields aren't affected anyway, and the Anarchy will hurt.
*Corruption is in general a much smaller problem in RaR - 3 FPs means 4xOCN :D. And there's always the Supreme Court and Echelon later (plus the Absolute Monarchy GSW).
 
Pre-Turn :

After some discussion I get to my turns. Oglala is vetoed to a Forge, due in 2. After that it will build a harbor. Nothing else is changed, not even Worker housing in Hunkpapa as that improvement will be obsolete only after we get Feudalism.

As we have a barb threat and quite a bit of money, I spend some of it to establish embassies with our neighbours. First to Germany : They have elephants, incence, camels and horses + 1 lux.

Germany capital

Same thing goes to Persia: They are building Slave Trade, ready in 8 turns. They have Gold, elephants and iron + 2 lux.

Persia capital

Move tribal guardsman from Oglala to guard the worker.

Hit enter.

IBT:

Barb pillages the temple work in Little Bighorn as there was no one to protect the city. I hoped it would pillage Oglala as it had less shields. :mad:

950BC(2):

Turn 1 is missing as Greebley played that.

Ask Babylonian bowman+cultivator to leave. They promise to go, which I greatly doubt...

I change Dakota to a galley as the babylonian settler pair moved S to the darkness. We need boat to meet new civs.

IBT:

Persia demands our scout to leave. I forgot that desert takes 2 movement points in RaR.

Oglala Forge -> Harbor

925BC(3):

Our scout in Persian lands sees land across a small channel. No borders seen though.

Now I could demand Babylon to leave or declare, but I let them walk.

IBT:

Babylons and also Germans are heading towards Oglala and barb jungle. There must be some resources.

900BC(4):

Ashur builds hardy cultivator, I wonder if I could beat babys and germans to the south. I can use the roads, they can't. I guess it's worth a try and I pull am champ from Dakota to block those settlers.

Dynasticism will come next turn.

875BC(5):

Dynastacism is invented, but I do not start revolution this turn as 3 cities have 1 turn to go on build orders. I'll let those finish first.

I move our hardy clan which is going to grab the exotic woods one SE so that it'll get one wood straight away and after border expansion it'll get the second and also iron and incence (if we win culture fight...)

After Dynastacism I start bronze working to get better defense and closer to mining. Poetry is only tech AI doesn't have yet, but now I don't risk on that.

IBT:

Bison River chariot -> shrine. (Civilopedia does not say a thing about tourist attractions related to palace gardens? DocT says you get tourist bonus, but that's not listed on the civilopedia tourist info. This can be changed as due revolution it won't get ready before my turns are done.)

Babylonians complete Great Lighthouse. Their cultural borders expand and we lose our camel.

850BC(6):

Start revolution, anarchy for 4 turns.

Santee is founded.

Germans have found a city across the channel on the next landmass. I see blue borders. I set our scout on sentry (Y) to wait by the channel if he sees a by-passer.

IBT:

Spanish complete Slave Trade.

825BC(7):

I block babylonian settler pair with our troops.

IBT:

Chinese complete Colossus.

Persians did not change Slave Trade to any other wonder, they lost a lot of shields!

800BC(8):

Our hardy cultivator has by-passed babylonian and german pioneers.

IBT:

Dakota riots. Well, in anarchy that doesn't hurt us that much.

775BC(9):

Whoops. Our hardy clan spots a barb horse in the jungle two spots away. Move reinforcements to the escort stack.

IBT:

Barb horse moves next to our stack, but in a good angle. We can bypass him to the new city spot.

750BC(10):

Sioux monarchy is founded.

Notes:

Is something happened to our reputation. Persia does not have Polytheism and Germany and Babylons do, so there's a trade opportunity, but advisor is saying "they would never accept such a deal" if I offer gpt???

The hardy clan is going for the hill one step S, that'll grab the fish and the sugar after border expansion.

THE SAVE
 
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