Election 2024 Part III: Out with the old!

Who do you think will win in November?

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aelf said:
I feel the influence of the man-o-sphere is bleeding into mainstream, moderate spaces. So there's potentially a trickle of new support for Trump from there.
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Normies getting sick of online idiocy.

Bleating about white privilege isn't going to go down well outside of middle class or better liberal college urban spaces. Most of them already vote your way.

Here all the bad stuff is primarily economic. You're better off being a middle class PoC than a poor white.
 
I really don't understand the insistence that the Democratic Praty is bleating about white privilege or some other liberal social issue all the time. The politicians running everything talk a bit about racism and throw us some platitudes about equality or how everyone should be able to live how they want, but I rarely ever hear Kamala Harris or Joe Biden or anyone else at that level directly talk about privilege or systemic bigotry, and it rarely seems to me like they're actually doing all that much about it when they're in office. Their big policy achievements are mostly economic stimulus and infrastructure spending, and sometimes they try to do something like help out people struggling with student loan debt or make a half-hearted attempt at stopping Red states from doing evil things, but that's... kinda it. Their rhetoric mostly beats back on the MAGA crowd by pointing out all the ways they think America is already great and the economy is doing well.

Like, on a deep, fundamental level, they're a fairly conservative party that just occasionally passes some slightly progressive stuff to appease the masses, and somehow that's not enough for the right because they're just conservative instead of being batshit crazy and totally disconnected from reality, and somehow the right-wing framing on immigrants or a billion other issues gets taken seriously by the media and a lot of supposed non-rightists out of, idk, some sense that things must be fair and balanced, so they have to consider the opinions that Donald Trump tweets and millions of people repeat, even if they're clearly just totally nonsense?

Like, genuinely, I don't understand it, and the way it comes across to me is that a lot of people just decided "some internet leftists are mean to me sometimes and point out things about privilege or systemic bigotry or some other issues with contemporary America and it makes me feel bad so now I have to vote for Trump"
 
choxorn said:
I really don't understand the insistence that the Democratic Praty is bleating about white privilege or some other liberal social issue all the time. The politicians running everything talk a bit about racism and throw us some platitudes about equality or how everyone should be able to live how they want, but I rarely ever hear Kamala Harris or Joe Biden or anyone else at that level directly talk about privilege or systemic bigotry, and it rarely seems to me like they're actually doing all that much about it when they're in office. Their big policy achievements are mostly economic stimulus and infrastructure spending, and sometimes they try to do something like help out people struggling with student loan debt or make a half-hearted attempt at stopping Red states from doing evil things, but that's... kinda it. Their rhetoric mostly beats back on the MAGA crowd by pointing out all the ways they think America is already great and the economy is doing well.

Like, on a deep, fundamental level, they're a fairly conservative party that just occasionally passes some slightly progressive stuff to appease the masses, and somehow that's not enough for the right because they're just conservative instead of being bathorsehocky crazy and totally disconnected from reality, and somehow the right-wing framing on immigrants or a billion other issues gets taken seriously by the media and a lot of supposed non-rightists out of, idk, some sense that things must be fair and balanced, so they have to consider the opinions that Donald Trump tweets and millions of people repeat, even if they're clearly just totally nonsense?

Like, genuinely, I don't understand it, and the way it comes across to me is that a lot of people just decided "some internet leftists are mean to me sometimes and point out things about privilege or systemic bigotry or some other issues with contemporary America and it makes me feel bad so now I have to vote for Trump"
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The progressive wing generally swings that way.

If you're not really in the targeted groups tax cuts for example might look good. Trump handed out 3k during Covid relief.

Something is better than nothing might be enough to swing someone towards Trump.

People don't really factor in opportunity cost or care if that cost hits someone else.
 
Kyriakos said:
Imo the only good thing with the election is that it is almost here. Just over 3 weeks from now.
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Who would you prefer to win ... (as a Greek person who can't vote in the US election and with "no dog in the fight" blah blah blah, fill in the "I don't care" metaphor/phrase)?

You clearly "care" because you keep posting in the thread. So all BS and dodging aside... bottom line... who do you prefer to win. Harris or Trump? Answer?
 
Sommerswerd said:
Who would you prefer to win ... (as a Greek person who can't vote in the US election and with "no dog in the fight" blah blah blah, fill in the "I don't care" metaphor/phrase)?

You clearly "care" because you keep posting in the thread. So all BS and dodging aside... bottom line... who do you prefer to win. Harris or Trump? Answer?
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That's a bit hostile :p
Fortunately I am not having to choose. If I was able to vote, I would 1000000000000000000% abstain, as I suppose a few of your countrymen also will do.

As for who I'd prefer, as a "both suck but ultimately I choose", this isn't easy to answer, because to me what matters is which of the two being elected now is more likely to in the long run unwittingly lead to the restoration of the Byzantine Empire. Your guess is as good as mine there ^^
 
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As a non-Greek person I am appaled that my American brothers need to choose betwen two comic book villains. I would also abstain. This is not a conversation I choose to be a part of, in my own country politics too.
 
Trump is the more reactionary choice, obviously. I was trying to imply that it's not a good idea to imagine the rest of the world views the US election as if they were citizens of the US. And while I was tongue-in-cheek about the Byzantine Empire, it alludes to needing to find something you actually care about, so that an election half the planet away interests you.
 
The Vicar of Christ agrees they're both mouthpieces of evil.
 
choxorn said:
I really don't understand the insistence that the Democratic Praty is bleating
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I live in firm Trump country. I ask people why they're voting for Trump if I know them well enough to talk politics. Try to change minds to the extent I can. Probably to about 50, 100 people total. There are a few patterns. The sense that there is a full court press against traditional values is definitely there. Whomever the Dems put forth will represent that, to their minds, by being the closest in alignment to the values on the offensive against their preferences.

Some core issues.

1. Immigration. A substantial % of Trump voters I believe want zero immigration. None. Hard no. If I were to guess the motivating factor, racism is not absent, but change aversion is probably greater. They feel like their community is fine as it is. I often get the sense that many wouldn't want ME to move in, and I'm a white guy born and raised one county over. None have said it explicitly, but I know it's there. They do actually accept those who actually arrive, quickly, generally, though.

On this issue, they are resentful. They believe the elite has ignored them(true of both parties, historically, less true of Trump, presently). I think they have a sense that liberals call any opposition to immigration at any number racist, imperious in ignoring what they think is a community's right to determine its members. The imperious bit is key in the anger. The marbled halls of academia are believed disprotionately influential, certainly moreso than barely paved country streets, on moral questions like these, and that is hated. A#1 resentment source, in my estimation.

2. On trans people in society, they feel like their older norms should prevail over new thought. This is often based in religion. Trans in girls sports is usually the chosen angle, but there's a certain glee you see people have when they know it's socially acceptable to be cruel or harmful, and I sense that there. They're there for the hate and don't really care about womens sports.

3. Different conception of fairness. They believe its unfair the state should help anyone, because no one helped them. Often that's true: no one did help them through genuinely dire struggles. Of particular ire is aid on basis of identity.

Those are the 3 I struggle to change minds on IRL. An online leftist probably actually has tried to shame them for these views at some point. Some will actually say so explicitly. The shaming is wholly ineffective at achieving its goal: they have refuges, both IRL and online, that they move to without any noteworthy impact on their life. It really just contributes to anger. From a pragmatic, actual changing of minds view, it is counterproductive. Extremely so. I doubt many would even consider Trump otherwise, honestly. That John Oliver segment on shaming was totally, wholly, disastrously wrong; it does not moderate behavior in these spaces, it actually increases radicalization afaict.
 
Would your neighbours object to the merit based immigration? A famous scientist joining local uni as a professor? I am just curious of the extent of “hard no”.
 
Moriarte said:
Would your neighbours object to the merit based immigration? A famous scientist joining local uni as a professor? I am just curious of the extent of “hard no”.
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It is my opinion that they wouldn't be thrilled about it, even if he were extremely talented, looked like them(white), and spoke English. If they had a choice that choice is probably.. nah.

It's hard to imagine how insular some of the rural areas of America can be, but it's been present in any small town I've moved to.

The locals at my last job hardly spoke to those who moved in later. The migrants, who like me were from basically 1 county over, and nearly all white, had our social circle, they had theirs, and the two hardly mixed.
 
As a Yurp being a Yurpean doesn't prevent me from seeing the objectively better choice. Even regardless the direct impact on me.

In the Blue corner, regular old corruption.
In the Red corner, corruption turned up to 11.

In the Blue corner, some sort of adherance to the democratic processs
In the Red corner none. Election are fair when won, rigged when lost. When lost, violence isn't just used but celebrated to overturn the result.

In the Blue corner, some recognition of reality.
In the Red corner, reality just stands in the way of the narrative. Also sharks, Hannibal Lector, eating of cats and dogs, hurricanes nuked, bleach injected and on and on and on.
 
The US elections are now a billion dollar money pit for the rich to win favor and an undemocratic electoral college which makes states more important that people. Both need to change.
 
choxorn said:
Like, genuinely, I don't understand it, and the way it comes across to me is that a lot of people just decided "some internet leftists are mean to me sometimes and point out things about privilege or systemic bigotry or some other issues with contemporary America and it makes me feel bad so now I have to vote for Trump"
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That certainly fits the segment on OT.
 
Kyriakos said:
That's a bit hostile :p
Fortunately I am not having to choose. If I was able to vote, I would 1000000000000000000% abstain, as I suppose a few of your countrymen also will do.

As for who I'd prefer, as a "both suck but ultimately I choose", this isn't easy to answer, because to me what matters is which of the two being elected now is more likely to in the long run unwittingly lead to the restoration of the Byzantine Empire. Your guess is as good as mine there ^^
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A dodge... just as expected/predicted :smug: Its not hostile at all.:) I'm fully aware that it doesn't matter in the slightest, I'm just giving you crap all in good fun :p
Kyriakos said:
Trump is the more reactionary choice, obviously. I was trying to imply that it's not a good idea to imagine the rest of the world views the US election as if they were citizens of the US. And while I was tongue-in-cheek about the Byzantine Empire, it alludes to needing to find something you actually care about, so that an election half the planet away interests you.
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Ah... so Trump then... also, as expected ;):p
 
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