Election 2024 Part III: Out with the old!

[Gori the Grey]

@Lexicus, I liked that essay.

I was amused by this part, in light of the flap over whether Harris ever worked at a McDonalds:

To the public relations mind, the public sphere is a game in which the opposition tries to knock you off your message. Take the example of one successful message, "Gore's lies". The purpose of the game was to return any interaction to the message, namely that Gore lies. So if it is noted that the supposed examples of Gore lying (e.g., his perfectly true claim to have done onerous farm chores) were themselves untrue, common responses would include, "that doesn't matter, what matters is Gore's lies", or "the reasons people believe them is because of Gore's lies", or "yes perhaps, but there are so many other examples of Gore's lies", or "you're just trying to change the subject away from Gore's lies", and so on.

I didn't even remember that attack on Gore.

 

[Sommerswerd]

@Gori the Grey your posts on the definitions of 'racism' once again bring to mind this essay, which @Akka should also read.

What Is Conservatism and What Is Wrong with It?

Specifically, this bit here:


Bear in mind, this essay was written in 2004 but this quote perfectly describes the appeal of Trump at its core.

After @Gori the Grey complimented the article I decided to read it. I hadn't noticed the post before. Its long and I just started but the first thing that jumped out at me right at the beginning was this:

From the pharaohs of ancient Egypt to the self-regarding thugs of ancient Rome to the glorified warlords of medieval and absolutist Europe, in nearly every urbanized society throughout human history, there have been people who have tried to constitute themselves as an aristocracy. These people and their allies are the conservatives. The tactics of conservatism vary widely by place and time. But the most central feature of conservatism is deference: a psychologically internalized attitude on the part of the common people that the aristocracy are better people than they are. Modern-day liberals often theorize that conservatives use "social issues" as a way to mask economic objectives, but this is almost backward: the true goal of conservatism is to establish an aristocracy, which is a social and psychological condition of inequality.

This is reminiscent of Orwell's 1984:

"Throughout recorded time, and probably since the end of the Neolithic Age, there have been three kinds of people in the world, the High, the Middle, and the Low. They have been subdivided in many ways, they have borne countless different names, and their relative numbers, as well as their attitude towards one another, have varied from age to age: but the essential structure of society has never altered. Even after enormous upheavals and seemingly irrevocable changes, the same pattern has always reasserted itself, just as a gyroscope will always return to equilibrium, however far it is pushed one way or the other. The aims of these three groups are entirely irreconcilable. The aim of the High is to remain where they are."

 

[Farm Boy]

More like a curse rather than a blessing... invocative of the Chinese curse, "May you live in interesting times".

Although... Leonidas' delivery comes off with a genuine tone of pity... like he feels sorry for Ephialtes, because he knows Ephialtes feels guilty and ashamed and will have to carry his guilt and shame for the rest of his life... but at the same time he is cursing him by wishing him a long life of being tortured by guilt and shame.

Good movie.

In the context of this thread... what it reminds me of is the philosophical question I brought up earlier about the German people that elevated Hitler's party into power. I wonder if they feel ashamed/guilty now, in their twighlight years, or if they feel defiant at the scorn that must be theirs.

I wonder how Trump voters will feel decades from now. Will they proudly admit to voting for Trump back in the day, or will they dodge/deny the question? I wonder if the result of the election today will have an impact on that.

I can't think of a worse fate.

But in this instance, those to whom I apply it are shameless. I'm having a hard time thinking of a more comprehensive judgement of character.

 

[Samson]

Democrats could flip two governor's mansions in 2024

They've been overshadowed by the presidential and congressional races, but there are also gubernatorial races in 11 states and two territories being decided today. Most of them will be easy wins for the incumbent party, but there are a couple races that could be competitive.

According to polling, the closest race is in New Hampshire. Popular Republican Gov. Chris Sununu is retiring, giving Democrats a ripe pick-up opportunity in what has become a light-blue state. According to an average of the last five polls of the race, Republican former Sen. Kelly Ayotte and Democrat Joyce Craig, the former mayor of Manchester, were tied 48% to 48%.

The other competitive race is a bit of a surprise — Indiana. Republican Sen. Mike Braun started off the cycle as the heavy favorite to succeed term-limited Republican Gov. Eric Holcomb. But the state GOP nominated a controversial pastor, Micah Beckwith, to be his running mate, and the presence of a strong-ish Libertarian candidate in the race could eat into Republican support. Meanwhile, the Democratic candidate, former Superintendent of Public Instruction Jennifer McCormick, could have crossover appeal as a former Republican. Only one pollster, ActiVote, has surveyed this race in October, and its most recent poll found Braun leading McCormick 56% to 44%.

 

[Voidwalkin]

Bear in mind, this essay was written in 2004 but this quote perfectly describes the appeal of Trump at its core.

This is incorrect.

Brushing aside the usual religious traditionalists, who do vote their conscious, it does not describe the oppsition.

If something is described as a racist structure, it will inevitably be concluded to be morally illegitimate by a fair % of the population. Cases have been made that almost anything that can be imagined is racist. Calls to deconstruct almost every facet of society follow.

People will (usually) support destruction of clearly racist and deeply harmful structures. Too many crusades have been waged when it was neither clear nor important, but trivial.

Moral authority consequently declined to the extent that the woke are perceived so needpessly destructive, to vote against those adjacent to the belief structure is an expression of conscious.

 

[Gorbles]

More like browbeating people they disagree with.

normal people whom aren’t terminally moralistic busybodies on Tumblir

insufferable leftists

I'm sorry, who's browbeating who?

People will (usually) support destruction of clearly racist and deeply harmful structures.

Yes, that's why Trump's platform is looking at a near 50% of the vote. Because people support the destruction of clearly racist structures.

 

[Lexicus]

Yes, that's why Trump's platform is looking at a near 50% of the vote. Because people support the destruction of clearly racist structures.

I'm also reminded of the famous saying about liberals/moderates: that they are against all wars except the current one and support all civil rights movements except the current one. Pretty much on the nose here.

 

[aelf]

The people preaching God for salary may or may not realise they're being controlled by darkfriends.

Meanwhile, the darkspawn here think they're in an echo chamber because they don't have an audience.

 

[Voidwalkin]

Yes, that's why Trump's platform is looking at a near 50% of the vote. Because people support the destruction of clearly racist structures.

I don't think you'd believe that anyone could look at the environment of the left and press pause if there weren't some racism, sexism or transphobia latent.

I personally know people who have, and as such, I'm not gonna claim I don't. One of whom is almost impossibly timid and meek. I do try to keep it real, and consequently, I can't claim that the culture of the left hasn't prompted some rejections. Sorry.

 

[Akka]

Trump's distressing level of appeal has to do with the dynamic I sketched a while back in a post that was probably tl: two meanings of the word racist.

"Racist" used to mean that you are violent to or hate people of a different racial group.

It has come to mean "perpetuating societal systems that advantage one race and disadvantage another."

Let's say that insisting that a child use a fork is racist under that second definition, as Joshna Maharaj suggests. When you tell the average person that he is racist for insisting that his child eats with a fork, he thinks you are saying that he is violent toward people of a different race. He feels falsely accused and outraged against the accuser.

I already somewhat disputed a part of your reasoning, and I feel I have to do it again. As it's a concrete example, it'll be a bit easier to try to convey the nuance.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that your argument is that two people have different definition of "racism", and as such each one is using their own (more encompassing and based on how behaviour tend to perpetuate general societal structure) definition, and the other feels hurt because their own definition (about violence and hate) doesn't cover the case, hence leading to resentment. Basically, you describe a case where someone feels wounded by a honest description about what he's doing, because the description evokes something different in his mind.
I simply don't see it like that, for a number of reasons. I'll take this example as a basis, which can be extrapolated to more general cases as the process is the same :

- First, keeping the same word to express a different idea is not innocent. It's deliberate manipulation, trying to keep the negative emotional load from the first to make people feel guilt over issues which are, actually, NOT relevant to said emotional load. You're painting a case of two people having an honest misunderstanding, while it's not a misundertanding at all - the confusion is a feature, not a bug.
Attempt to emotionally trick someone is going to cause resentment.

- Second the amalgam between "teaching table manners" and "colonialism" is just idiotic. Both are completely unrelated, table manners are just local mores. They exist since eating at a table exist, they didn't wait until colonisation. More generally, lots of "racist" descriptions fall into this exact pattern, of taking something which is totally unrelated, and somehow linking it, in a complete non sequitur, to some ismphobia.
This doesn't cause people to feel wounded by a different interpretation. This cause people to get bewildered by how absurd and nonsensical the "reasoning" is. This causes contempt, not hurt.

- Third, the person basically feels entitled to tell native people that they have no legitimacy to teach their own mores from their own culture while being in their own country to their own children. I have a hard time to convey just how incredibly arrogant and out of place it is, especially when it paints itself about being considerate of others culture - it's trying to dictate the natives about how they should yield to a foreign culture, in their home country, all the while complaining about colonization. I brushed this point previously when I pointed to you that you didn't seem to treat the pertinence and legitimacy of the ideology, and this one is a pretty stark example.
Again, this doesn't cause a feeling of hurt through honest misunderstanding. It causes anger through arrogance, misplaced entitlement and hypocrisy.

- Fourth and finally, there is the degree of control inherent here. It's about trying to shame people into changing the basics of social behaviours. We're back to the point where it was said that's the self-righteous busybody trying to dictate how you live your life. The exact equivalent of the moral guardian of the previous century, that were trying to control what happened in your bedroom - except this was them then (and it's still them now when it comes to bedrooms, TBH), but it's also you now on the other side.
Here again, it's not difference in definitions that makes one feels wounded. It's reaction to trying to be controlled by someone else. It's fighting back, not feeling insulted.

As you can see, none of all this is actually relevant to actual racism - not even the abusively modified definition. Everything here that causes a rejection, is due to behaviour, be it about deceptiveness, arrogance, intrusiveness or idiocy.
Of course there also definitely is also the clash about bona fide racism (though even then, it's often less "black and white" than some would like to pretend it is), but I was interested in adding the nuances that you overlooked. And there is also still the significant pillar that the whole "structural racism" argument is not necessarily "true" not "pertinent", at least not in the way it's used.

 

[SemiLazyGamer]

This has been the case with Trump since the 2016 race. When he originally announced his candidacy it was widely regarded as a joke, a publicity stunt, a mockery and similar... but the news media covered it breathlessly nonetheless, because it was highly entertaining and was drawing big ratings. It was a ridiculous spectacle that the media just couldn't get enough of.

It was that non-stop coverage of Trump at the beginning which elevated him from a joke/novelty act, into a legitimate candidate and ultimately the frontrunner, taking center stage in all the debates. The news media created the monster... and then he ate them. If the news media had acted with a shred of integrity from the beginning, they would have largely ignored Trump and his antics and his candidacy would have likely petered out.

Wanted to go back to this: another thing is that most of the other Republican 2016 candidates were either boring or not personable.

Despite my loathing for him, the guy has charisma and he definitely spiced up the Republican side, which was also key to him winning and starting the cult around him.

 

[Akka]

Couldn't be that the "wokes" have a bit more of a point than you're willing to admit, could it?

If it was just about "racism", the numbers would have been pretty steady, and even declining with time (because, factually, today's societies are a LOT less racists than they were in the 70s-90s). Yet on the contrary, votes for far-right parties and Trump have skyrocketed in the previous years (Trump being elected to begin with was bewildering, and while he's not had a meteoric rise after that, he still managed to increase his votes).
So no, I don't think the tired old "it's all about racism" is any truer.

There's no mystery to it at all: Trump gives people permission to not care, and it's easier not to care than to care.

THAT on the other hand, I find pretty interesting as a take. Not in the "this is racism" way, but in the "I don't require you to go on a crusade, I don't require you to feel responsible for everything" (or, well, considering Trump, "responsible for anything").
I don't know if you have the same take on what it means than I, but regardless thank you, because I definitely think you are on something here.

@Gori the Grey your posts on the definitions of 'racism' once again bring to mind this essay, which @Akka should also read.

What Is Conservatism and What Is Wrong with It?

This one just leave me pretty cold. It's an overly long one-sided political rant, but it has precious little in actual arguments. It seems we're just supposed to take the claims at face value, without the guy having actually built his case.

 

[Samson]

Man arrested with flare gun and lighter at US Capitol

A man carrying a flare gun and a torch lighter was arrested at the US Capitol Visitor Center on Tuesday.

Authorities stopped the man during a screening process where they say he smelled of fuel.

The arrest led the Capitol Visitor's Center to close for tours for the day.

He had a pile of papers to deliver to congress???

 

[Kyriakos]

Man arrested with flare gun and lighter at US Capitol

A man carrying a flare gun and a torch lighter was arrested at the US Capitol Visitor Center on Tuesday.

Authorities stopped the man during a screening process where they say he smelled of fuel.

The arrest led the Capitol Visitor's Center to close for tours for the day.

He had a pile of papers to deliver to congress???

Remember remember the 5th of November.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Yeah, this whole thing needs its own thread. It's of course directly related to the election, but it's also a sufficiently distinct topic. I owe @Gorbles (on the one side of me) and @Akka (on the other) fuller responses than I have given.

Will the down time during tonight's election results allow me time to do it justice? We'll see.

 

[JollyRoger]

religious traditionalists, who do vote their conscious,

A convicted felon sporting heavy make-up that has cheated on all three of his wives and hocks Bibles manufactured in China

 

[GoodEnoughForMe]

I don’t believe in winners or losers so I voted for each and everyone on my ballot.

 

[Farm Boy]

<sniffles> Maximal democracy! So proud.

 

[SemiLazyGamer]

Reuters: FBI SAYS IT IS AWARE OF APPARENTLY FAKE BOMB THREATS TO POLLING LOCATIONS IN SEVERAL STATES, MANY OF WHICH APPEAR TO ORIGINATE FROM RUSSIAN EMAIL DOMAINS

https://twitter.com/x/status/1853907691107938460

Here's an article that also includes the Georgia (US state) Secretary of State blaming Russia for closing down polling stations in majority Black areas with said fake bomb threats.

FBI, Georgia secretary of state blame polling place bomb threats on Russians

The bomb threat was one of several attacks in the key swing state of Georgia blamed on Russians.

www.usatoday.com

 

[Gorbles]

I don't think you'd believe that anyone could look at the environment of the left and press pause if there weren't some racism, sexism or transphobia latent.

I personally know people who have, and as such, I'm not gonna claim I don't. One of whom is almost impossibly timid and meek. I do try to keep it real, and consequently, I can't claim that the culture of the left hasn't prompted some rejections. Sorry.

Yes, and? To borrow another post I said elsewhere on the site, there are real people who believe humanoid lizards eat children in the sewers.