Estonians need your help! (voting)

[Lone Wolf]

Your posts contradict each other - it's Russia that is creating the hysteria, even if it's for their inner politics. And it seems that you would like tell Estonians what to do (" I just want Estonia to stop..."), exactly like your government.

Both sides are quite hysterical IMHO... And, yes, I am giving some advice to Estonia - why can't I? I never said they must follow it anyway. I am allowed to give advice, am I not?

It's your Islamic buddies in the South who are going to threaten you.

Yes, in fact, I am too against Russia's friendship with guys like HAMAS, our even more pleasant guy - Holocaust denier Mr. Ahmadinejad. Such regimes simply aren't trustworthy and just use Russia for their goals. They will simply betray us when they think we are not useful to them anymore.

However, I don't think Russia will really start a second Cold War or something like that. The Russian elite likes these Alpine skiing villages and tourism in these small Caribbean islands too much to do some sort of real militiary confrontation with the West. In fact, the Russian elite can hardly be called really nationalistic. It does support nationalist movements in Russia sometimes, but when these nationalists begin walking around the streets with cute slogans like "Return the old Russian province of Estland back! Advance, our tanks!", Special Branch of Police (OMON) quickly puts an end to such meetings. Russian elite just plays with fire, thinking nationalism can be quite useful sometimes, but that elite itself is afraid of it a bit and want to have it under its control. That may not end pleasantly...

Also I don't think Western countries are going to attack Russia - that will simply cause too much problems to them. Anyone who thinks that U. S. really wants to invade Russia (after all that Iraq stuff) is predjuised a bit towards good old U. S., IMO...

He supported the idea of Estonia taking revenge and killing russians just like the Russians massacred 10%of the Estonian population.

Oh, my. I hope you are not supporting this idea, do you?

Iwould never be able to look at a statue that glorifies the murder of 10% of all Estonians and the complete desruction of the country.

That's the root of the problem. Different associations! Estonians associate the solider in Soviet uniform with occupation, Gulag etc. Russia, on the other hand, considers WWII one of the gloriest moments in her history. And the soliders who were fighting in Estonia (except for a bunch of maradeurs which is, sadly is the characteristic onf ANY advancing army - c'est la guerre) clearly did not think they were occuping someone! They were fighting with fascism and achieved a victory! You can't change these associations.

I think Estonians should (in no way I am dictating them what to do, it is simply my humble option) take the advice of Lithuanian president Valdas Adamkus, who said "We in Lithuania have many momuments like this, we are walking next to them every day and simply do not take notice of them". You must know the past, but you shouldn't fight with it - becauce there is no way you can achieve victory in the fight.

Anyway, if things will become really hot, I think Russia should simply buy the momument from Estonia, if Estonia hates it so much. If Estonia really doesn't want to see it, why they should have it anyway?

 

[Verbose]

You dont understand. Simply. Its not about them, its about US. If you want peace - leave things status quo. If you want to change that there will be conflict. Russians can take a lof of damage before exploding, but once they do don't stand in the way. Its about honour

Oh I do think I understand quite a bit of this.

And I wrote a long answer, but on reflection deleted it in favour of a set of questions:

Do you, as a Russian, understand what is at stake here for the Estonians?

I'd say the real problem here seems to be a Russian inability to get their heads around any perspective on things but their own. Your post seems to confirm this. It even includes a threat! You have no reflection on the reasonableness of resorting to one over what is in fact a domestic issue of history-writing in a sovereign state?

Do Russians ever seriously ponder why its smaller neighbours, who pose no threat to Russia, live in dread of it? And while doing so, still chose to occasionally engage Russia over matters such as this? It's important to them. Do Russians get why?

 

[Mirc]

Looking at the names, I noticed something interesting: about 4 Moldovans voted for Russia in the first 5 pages. You know what this means, right?

Spoiler :

Propaganda!

 

[Verbose]

Anyway, if things will become really hot, I think Russia should simply buy the momument from Estonia, if Estonia hates it so much. If Estonia really doesn't want to see it, why they should have it anyway?

The Estonians would probably be very happy with such a solution, and would most likeley gift it for free.

But this isn't really about the monuent per se, now is it? It's rather but what it "means" to the different parties, and that won't be solved by Russia taking care of it.

 

[qummik]

Both sides are quite hysterical IMHO...

I think so too. And I think that our government made a mistake when removeing the statue so fast. But that gives the russians no right to protest the way they did. I feel sad for those groups, who were against the removal and protested peacefully. Some of them tried to stop the looting.

I think Estonians should (in no way I am dictating them what to do, it is simply my humble option) take the advice of Lithuanian president Valdas Adamkus, who said "We in Lithuania have many momuments like this, we are walking next to them every day and simply do not take notice of them". You must know the past, but you shouldn't fight with it - becauce there is no way you can achieve victory in the fight.

We did this for 15 years. Until some russians took out the soviet flag and demanded the return of the Russian Army. We don't want to see this kind of protests in the centre of our capital.

Anyway, if things will become really hot, I think Russia should simply buy the momument from Estonia, if Estonia hates it so much. If Estonia really doesn't want to see it, why they should have it anyway?

We would be very happy to give it for free.
But this is not in the best interest of Russia. Because now they can say that we are discriminateing russians. Despite the fact that every international study in the past has showed otherwise.

 

[Lone Wolf]

But this isn't really about the monuent per se, now is it? It's rather but what it "means" to the different parties, and that won't be solved by Russia taking care of it.

But, after all, that momument was a cause for all that riff-raff. Removing the cause will result in less riff-raff, which is, IMO, is a very good thing.

Looking at the names, I noticed something interesting: about 4 Moldovans voted for Russia in the first 5 pages. You know what this means, right? Propaganda!

What a Moldovian voting for Russia's cause has to do with any kind of propagnda? Explain, please.

 

[Gelion]

Oh I do think I understand quite a bit of this.

And I wrote a long answer, but on reflection deleted it in favour of a set of questions:

Do you, as a Russian, understand what is at stake here for the Estonians?

I'd say the real problem here seems to be a Russian inability to get their heads around any perspective on things but their own. Your post seems to confirm this. It even includes a threat! You have no reflection on the reasonableness of resorting to one over what is in fact a domestic issue of history-writing in a sovereign state?

Do Russians ever seriously ponder why its smaller neighbours, who pose no threat to Russia, live in dread of it? And while doing so, still chose to occasionally engage Russia over matters such as this? It's important to them. Do Russians get why?

And you've just proven that you don't quite understand. Let me tell you something about living together and take a couple as an example. The husband doesn't leave the toilet seat in the right position and the wife hates him for that. There are three possibilities as to how this can evolve:
1. Long fight with either side winning and one side always being unhappy about the result. Lots of nerves and time spent.
2. One side giving in with the other one feeling free to find new battles and explore the spoils of victory. One side becomes a slave to another.
3. Accepting the status quo and learning how not to care about the supid toilet seat. This is the only way no nerves will be spent over an issue. An issue there may never be.

I understand the stakes. As a Russian and as a human being I tell you this. If you think this is worth fighting over: go for it - you will get a fight. If you want to live together - learn how to make sacrifices.

As for a threat. Its not a threat even if you want to read it that way. Its just the way Russians are. Take that useful information and try not to go for two goals at the same time - you might loose both.

In short: Status Quo is peace, any change is war (a fight for survival). Want to live together? - Do what you must.

 

[Zarn]

It is the country of Estonia not Rustonia. Estonians don't have to compromise.

 

[Hitti-Litti]

I think Estonians have any right to be angry to Russians, as Russians conquered Estonia after it's short independence and slaughtered masses of Estonians. Russians in Tallinn just have to understand that Estonia isn't a nation that wants a communist monument in their capital. If you go to Rome, act like a Roman(or something). If you go to Estonia, act like an Estonian. Estonia has its own laws, Russians should either accept them or leave.

 

[Gelion]

I think Estonians have any right to be angry to Russians, as Russians conquered Estonia after it's short independence and slaughtered masses of Estonians. Russians in Tallinn just have to understand that Estonia isn't a nation that wants a communist monument in their capital. If you go to Rome, act like a Roman(or something). If you go to Estonia, act like an Estonian. Estonia has its own laws, Russians should either accept them or leave.

If you want to settle accounts, then dismantle all buildings, roads, bridges build by Russian workers and Russian money. Give away all the books and resources invested into Estonia by Russians. Return all the blood spilled over a fight for Estonian souls. Russians and other nations of the Soviet Union spilled tons of blood so that Estonains dont turn into a nation of racist and darwinist pigs. Return all this debt, then we can talk.

 

[Hitti-Litti]

I think that Estonians were the ones that build roads and buildings in Estonia. Or at least I haven't heard about working camps in Estonia. Siberia, yes. Estonians built roads, buildings and bridges in Estonia. Estonians aren't Russians. So what do they owe to Russians? Russian blood? That was fault of Stalin&his friends, Estonia has the right to be independent, but Stalin didn't accept it.

 

[Zarn]

If you want to settle accounts, then dismantle all buildings, roads, bridges build by Russian workers and Russian money. Give away all the books and resources invested into Estonia by Russians. Return all the blood spilled over a fight for Estonian souls. Russians and other nations of the Soviet Union spilled tons of blood so that Estonains dont turn into a nation of racist and darwinist pigs. Return all this debt, then we can talk.

That is like saying the US can build a giant monument of Eisenhower and American soldiers in Pusan, even if the South Koreans did not want it.

 

[Evil Tyrant]

If you want to settle accounts, then dismantle all buildings, roads, bridges build by Russian workers and Russian money. Give away all the books and resources invested into Estonia by Russians. Return all the blood spilled over a fight for Estonian souls. Russians and other nations of the Soviet Union spilled tons of blood so that Estonains dont turn into a nation of racist and darwinist pigs. Return all this debt, then we can talk.

The Estonians owe Russia nothing. All resources invested in Estonia by the USSR was to dominate the area and Russify Estonian culture. The blood spilled by Soviet soldiers was not out of any altruism for Estonia, but to extend and preserve the Russian empire(in the form of the USSR). The Estonians were happy to be free until the Soviet army invaded the place. When the Nazis came, why do you think many Estonians joined the Waffen SS? It was because they would be able to fight the Russians and maybe free their homeland. Germany probably wouldn't have let them free if they won, but by that time the Estonians were so desperate they clung on to even the slimmest hope of freedom. Way to go Russia! It is not every day someone can so mistreat a county that the Nazis look like the vanguard of freedom in comparison.

 

[REDY]

On Czech portal is now news about keep statue

Edit Sorry, misleading info...

 

[Lone Wolf]

Strange, I just received news they will relocate it to the graveyard, as promised...

Russians in Tallinn just have to understand that Estonia isn't a nation that wants a communist monument in their capital.

The thing is that most Russians view this momument not as a momunet to Communism but as a momument to all Russian people that suffered and died in the massacres of WWII (and, BTW, the war politics of the Communist party is partly responsible for some of these sufferings!). While Estonians tend to view the Bronze Solider as a symbol of USSR.

I pointed out already that is a conflict of associations - that momument means completely different things to Russian and Estonian people.

These associations can't be changed, so I have came to conclusion that Estonia returning the momument to Russia would be the best solution.

 

[qummik]

Strange, I just received news they will relocate it to the graveyard, as promised...

That's correct. They will open it before the 9th of May.

 

[luiz]

Remove the statue.

And hey Russia, leave other countries the hell alone.

 

[Lone Wolf]

And hey Russia, leave other countries the hell alone.

The Estonians are free to relocate any statues as they want - let them move it back and forth around Tallinn every day, if they want to! But does that mean that we simple Russians are not allowed to have our Very Humble Option on that matter?

I repeat what I already said - both sides in the conflict behave like a couple of hysterics. I am not idelalizing nor Russian, nor Estonian goverments.

 

[AncientOne]

The relocation already is coming forth to the russian people in Estonia.. if we'd not care at all, we would surely remove it.. it is going relocated because it was place for criminals to fight and agitate feud against Estonian Republic. Like already said, few years ago some drunken russians came there on 9th of may with old soviet flags.. and that what estonians don't like.. people who want can also remember the fallen soldiers in the war memorial cemetary.
I'd say we get very well along with most of the russians here in Estonia.. but we can not overlook of the thing that is causing trouble every year.
+ it was already said at the beginning, that it will be just relocated not removed and destroyed.. if you didn't know that, then you should read every post more carefully.

 

[Winner]

To be honest, which reactions should be from US if Chinese want estalbish same system in Guatemala? Or even French or German?

Don't speculate.