Estonians need your help! (voting)

[Lone Wolf]

Perhaps Estonians should expell all the Russians who were caught rioting. They don't like the country they live in, okay, go back to Russia.

The thing is, nobody expects them in Russia. Russia is not ready to give real support to its citizens (althrough it is ready fo some nationalist hysteria).

If the Soviet Union could allegedly defeat the Nazi forces by themselves then the U.S. and U.K. would not have fallen to Germany without Soviet aid.

The U.S. and the U.K. did not fall to Germany... what do you mean?

Although the Soviet Union had a larger population than the U.S. (the Russian part had less though) it was far less wealthy and often needed military equipment from the West.

Yes. For example, the amount of cars imported from the U.S. in USSR in time of WWII was 20% (of total amount of cars). Still, we were doing the actual fighting...

The only area of Russia that should be free from independence from Russia is the area of non-Ruthenian Rus. All the rest ain't core Russian territory!

Wow. Judging by your option, the U.S. even does not have the right to exict, 'cause there is no such thing as "core U.S. territory" - they took it all from the indians.

...you owe your very existence to the U.S. Army rolling back the Nazis across Europe. Otherwise, your grandparents would have been murdered by the communists and portraits of Stalin would be all over Stalinburg (what was left of Prague) while its inhabitants speak Russian. You have much thanks to give to the United States.

I don't understand it. The Allied forces did not enter Chehoslovakia (except for a small area in the West) - it was captured by Soviet troops and was recognised as Soviet sphere of influence. The Soviets had a long time to do all the things you wrote, if they wanted.

P. S. - I didn't vote. The thing says that I should vote for the country which acted correctly - and IMO, both Estonia and Russia did NOT act correctly at all.

 

[Phlegmak]

I voted. But that site needs to improve its grammar. First time I voted, I got a message in Estonian. I tried again, and I got the following message:

You are allready voted!

I'm voted??

The stupid thing wouldn't let me vote. It's said I'm allready voted when I tried voting for the Estonian side.

EDIT: Ok, I just voted. I'm # 13728 on the Estonian side.

 

[The Tollan]

The U.S. and the U.K. did not fall to Germany... what do you mean?

Pasi Nurminen seems to be claiming that everyone fighting Germany would have lost without the Soviet Union. I do not accept this claim.

If the Soviet Union could have finished off the Reich without American and British help then the U.S. and U.K. at least could have survived against Germany. I agree with Pasi that the Soviet Union had pushed the German forces out of its territories to an extent that made it likely to survive the war though. Eventually the U.S. (with help from the British) would have atomic weapons which would greatly damage Hitler's chances of staying in power.

I fear I may have entered in a debate that is off the topic though.

Yes. For example, the amount of cars imported from the U.S. in USSR in time of WWII was 20% (of total amount of cars). Still, we were doing the actual fighting...

Agreed. The losses sustained by the Soviets were tragic.

I consider that the Russian and other Eastern European nationalities that fougt against the Nazis fought very bravely although I do not find the Soviet government at all palatable. I think that the U.S. and the U.K. (with American help they could easily survive) could not have been defeated by the Third Reich unless it had attained complete mastery over Europe. In the Kaiser's government during the early twenieth century could not have defeated the U.S. in North America had sufficient military preparations been made.

By the way, you are correct that languages would not usually have occurred change in Europe except in cases where genocide (then most of the people spoken in the country would not really be the ancestors of the present inhabitants today anyways so they would not really be a "we") or in cases where forced culture change would have occurred.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Ah, Tollan, that's what you mean.. OK. Yes, I doubt that Hitler could have invaded the U.K. - considering the Royal Fleet. Still, dropping an A-bomb on Berlin is a pretty gruesome perspective.

 

[Ryuga]

If the Soviet Union could have finished off the Reich without American and British help then the U.S. and U.K. at least could have survived against Germany. I agree with Pasi that the Soviet Union had pushed the German forces out of its territories to an extent that made it likely to survive the war though. Eventually the U.S. (with help from the British) would have atomic weapons which would greatly damage Hitler's chances of staying in power.

If Hitler didn't invade USSR and he would have gone Medditerrenean and Middle East route to take over British. Without access to Suez canel, UK would be dead as a fly in winter. Without wasting resources (planes, soldiers, tanks) to fighting USSR, Allies wouldn't be able to even touch German controlled Europe, let alone fly a plane with a nuclear bomb to bomb Berlin.

 

[qummik]

The Estonians would do themselves well to remember this. The Soviet Union saved them all. They would be but a passing mention in a Nazi history textbook without Stalin.

The U.S. and U.K. saved France form Nazis and they did not occupy it for 50 years. They did not even occupy western Germany.
Estonia suffered from both, the Nazi Germany and Soviet Union.

I have no problem with russian people honoring the soldiers (when the statue is moved, they can do it in a cemetery). But they just want Estonia to be part of Russia again.

EDIT: Here is an article about the riots - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6604647.stm

 

[Lone Wolf]

I don't want Estonia to be a part of Russia. I am opposed to it, in fact. I just want Estonia to stop that destructive anti-Russian hysteria which surrounds the moving of the statue and their mourning the day when the Nazis were driven out - like USSR is much, much worse then Nazis, who are, well, "brave German soliders defending Estonia against Russian scum." I am not against that moving per se - a solider graveyard is not in any way worse place for a momument than a bus stop.

 

[Julian Delphiki]

I don't want Estonia to be a part of Russia. I am opposed to it, in fact. I just want Estonia to stop that destructive anti-Russian hysteria which surrounds the moving of the statue and their mourning the day when the Nazis were driven out - like USSR is much, much worse then Nazis, who are, well, "brave German soliders defending Estonia against Russian scum." I am not against that moving per se - a solider graveyard is not in any way worse place for a momument than a bus stop.

The thing is, nobody expects them in Russia. Russia is not ready to give real support to its citizens (althrough it is ready fo some nationalist hysteria).

Your posts contradict each other - it's Russia that is creating the hysteria, even if it's for their inner politics. And it seems that you would like tell Estonians what to do (" I just want Estonia to stop..."), exactly like your government.

 

[qummik]

I don't want Estonia to be a part of Russia. I am opposed to it, in fact. I just want Estonia to stop that destructive anti-Russian hysteria which surrounds the moving of the statue and their mourning the day when the Nazis were driven out - like USSR is much, much worse then Nazis, who are, well, "brave German soliders defending Estonia against Russian scum." I am not against that moving per se - a solider graveyard is not in any way worse place for a momument than a bus stop.

The estonians do not "mourn the day when the Nazis were driven out" (and to us, USSR was much worse). And the "brave German soliders" did not defend Estonia against "Russian scum", estonians did, with german equipment. We hoped do get our independence back when we hold the russians out for long enough.

This time the hysteria comes from Russian side. They think we destroied the statue, this is not true. Our goverment offered many times, that russian official come and witness the relocation. They refused.

 

[Verbose]

This conflict is about how history is written.

For the Estonians WWII is an unmitigated disaster and tragedy, and it more or less seamlessly blends together with the Soviet period.

The Russians, even more so than the Americans and the British, tend to point to the Great Pariotic War (notice Patriotic here; whose Patria?) when asked what they and their country is all about.

So from a Russian perspective the Estoninans have committed the Unpardonable Sin of questioning he status of the Great Patriotic War as possibly the Greatest Contribution For Humanity Ever.

So it's a conflict over history. And history here is schock full of divergent interpretations and meanings. Here I'd say it's the Russians who are entirely unwilling to get their head around the fact that events in WWI can have multiple meanings for different people. It would seem doing so will mean questioning a fundamental part of how Russians think about their own identity. Very dangerous stuff. And the present Russians government has been feeding it for some time too.

 

[Winner]

Perhaps you too should head back to Auschwitz, maybe that would help you realize that you owe your very existence to the Red Army rolling back the Nazis across Eastern Europe. Otherwise, your grandparents would have been murdered, you wouldn't exist, and portraits of Hitler would be all over Hitlerville (Prague) while its inhabitants speak German. You have much thanks to give to Russia.

Just to point out your ignorance:

1) Czechoslovakia would have been liberated (and I mean truly liberated) by the Western Allies, if the Soviets hadn't forced them to stop in the Southern Bohemia. Czechoslovakia was "given" to the Soviets, it was supposed to be in the Russian sphere of influence.

2) My grandparents had the opportunity to compare Germans and Russians (both were stationed in their village) and according to their stories, Russians were actually worse from their point of view. Uncivilized, barbaric, thieving occupants. Germans were at least polite.

3) I really don't care about Prague and Brno was a half-german city anyway.

So better shut up.

 

[Winner]

That's repulsive.

And not only portraits, Czech commies built the world's largest statue of Stalin:

They destroyed it themselves after Stalin became less popular in the Soviet Union

 

[Winner]

This conflict is about how history is written.

For the Estonians WWII is an unmitigated disaster and tragedy, and it more or less seamlessly blends together with the Soviet period.

The Russians, even more so than the Americans and the British, tend to point to the Great Pariotic War (notice Patriotic here; whose Patria?) when asked what they and their country is all about.

So from a Russian perspective the Estoninans have committed the Unpardonable Sin of questioning he status of the Great Patriotic War as possibly the Greatest Contribution For Humanity Ever.

So it's a conflict over history. And history here is schock full of divergent interpretations and meanings. Here I'd say it's the Russians who are entirely unwilling to get their head around the fact that events in WWI can have multiple meanings for different people. It would seem doing so will mean questioning a fundamental part of how Russians think about their own identity. Very dangerous stuff. And the present Russians government has been feeding it for some time too.

Touché.

Baltic states were in similar position as Finland, with the difference they were actually occupied by the Soviets, while Finland managed to stop them. Finland was left with no choice than to side with Germans. Not because they liked Nazism, but because it was the only country that seemed to be capable of driving the Soviets out. For them, Nazi Germany was the lesser of two evils. For the Western Allies, Soviet Union was the lesser evil.

 

[REDY]

I dont have idea how Finland managed to be not fully puppet and member of eastern block. But its for history section.

 

[AL_DA_GREAT]

My grandfather was Estonian. He supported the idea of Estonia taking revenge and killing russians just like the Russians massacred 10%of the Estonian population. I would never be able to look at a statue that glorifies the murder of 10% of all Estonians and the complete desruction of the country.

 

[Gelion]

So from a Russian perspective the Estoninans have committed the Unpardonable Sin of questioning he status of the Great Patriotic War as possibly the Greatest Contribution For Humanity Ever.

You dont understand. Simply. Its not about them, its about US. If you want peace - leave things status quo. If you want to change that there will be conflict. Russians can take a lof of damage before exploding, but once they do don't stand in the way. Its about honour

 

[Winner]

You dont understand. Simply. Its not about them, its about US. If you want peace - leave things status quo. If you want to change that there will be conflict. Russians can take a lof of damage before exploding, but once they do don't stand in the way. Its about honour

The old Russian paranoia is obviously still alive and kicking. "US is our enemy! They inflitrate into our sovereign sphere of influence! We must defend ourselves from this grave danger!"



For the others:
Now you can see why we need to ally ourselves with the US. Russia can't be trusted, they are paranoid.

 

[Gelion]

US means Russians you paranoid person.

For the others:
Now you can see why we need to ally ourselves with the US. Russia can't be trusted, they are paranoid.

For the others... your best ally is yourself.... just take your glasses off.

 

[Winner]

US means Russians you paranoid person.

It's what you really meant anyway, Freud would be happy to see that

For the others... your best ally is yourself.... just take your glasses off.

Seriously, you people should stop looking to the West, if you want another enemy. West has no intention to subvert Russia or its interests, so long as Russia behave like a responsible democratic state, which respect the sovereignty of its neighbours.

It's your Islamic buddies in the South who are going to threaten you. And perhaps the Chinese who settle your territory as you slowly die out.

 

[REDY]

...

To be honest, which reactions should be from US if Chinese want estalbish same system in Guatemala? Or even French or German?