excuses racists use (particularly with dating)

[Farm Boy]

I think what TF is saying is that people shouldn't have race as a reason for not wanting to date people, not that they don't have the right to. I mean, personal relationships shouldn't be subject to the politics of race.

Oh sure, I'm positive TF is not saying we should arrange for forcing women to have romantic encounters with certain men. There's a different word for that. But still, I'm quite positive society has spent enough years telling women what their appropriate concerns are when it comes to mate selection. I am, quite frankly, unimpressed with this attitude dressed up in fresh clean wool.

 

[jackelgull]

The only criteria I would put is that I hope women realize that no matter what arbitrary criteria is used to eliminate potential mates right off the bat will have its draw backs as well as its positives. Race seems to be one of the particularly bad ones, but whatever you want I suppose.

 

[Narz]

It's ok to say "certain facial features are more beautiful to me than others."
And it's usually ok to admit that "certain facial features are generally more commonly found in some ethnic groups than in others."
But the moment you put those two together, the PC police get all crazy.
"Certain ethnicities are, in general, more beautiful to me than others."
People don't like this. They want you to think big black and bald is beautiful.
They want to change our perception of beauty! haha

It's weird. You're not even supposed to say 'fat' anymore. Sometimes I browse thru C-list personals for kicks (and believe it or not there are, very occasionally, some decent women on there) and every other posting is a BBW. No skinny chick would say Skinny Beautiful Woman. It reeks of insecurity. I don't dig fat chicks but I actually appreciate when they just say "heavy" instead of the stupid acronym.

Even the non-fat ones often use a new acronym "height-weight proportional" which I guess is a long winded way of saying "I'm not fat". Of course they could simply include a photo & skip the whole process.

 

[Farm Boy]

Given that race and ethnicity are a source of considerable fuzziness and ethnicity correlates with a wide range of personal concerns, I'd say it'll remain a something for a while. As the ethnicity barriers break down I expect we'll continue to see the melting of races into each other being considered less and less of a big thing. But this reaction to shame and label, it's just out of this century.

 

[Domen]

Maybe, but there's still a valid point to what I was saying, I have statistics to prove it.

http://wtfwhiteprivilege.tumblr.com/post/25653732956/some-data-okcupid-has-collected-about-race-and

http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-race-affects-whether-people-write-you-back/comment-page-11/

edit: In particular, check this one out:

This 54/46 vs. 40/60 difference might explain why males in Europe have a bit lighter skin than females:

This is from an older study than the one I quoted in last post:

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0048294

Figure 1. Distribution of skin, hair, and eye pigmentation.

Skin pigmentation histogram (A) and boxplot by country of sampling and sex (B) in 469 individuals showing the normality of the phenotype distribution and the differences between sexes and among countries. Males (M) have consistently lighter pigmentation (lower scored) than females (F) in all four countries. Among countries, the largest pigmentation difference is with Ireland, where, in our sample, individuals have lighter pigmentation or lower M index on average than in Poland, Italy, or Portugal. Hair pigmentation histogram (C) and boxplot by country (D) in 341 individuals showing the distribution of hair pigmentation and the differences among countries. In our sample, individuals from Northern European countries (Ireland, Poland) have on average lighter hair pigmentation than individuals from Southern European countries (Italy, Portugal). The distributions in males are similar to those in females in all countries except Ireland, where, in our sample, males have darker hair color than females (not shown). Eye pigmentation histogram (E) and boxplot by country (F) in 468 individuals showing the bimodal distribution of eye pigmentation and the differences among countries. Comparison with self-reported phenotypes shows that the two modes of the distribution correspond to blue and brown eye color, while individuals reporting green and hazel eye color have intermediate C’ values. As with hair pigmentation, in our sample, individuals from Northern European countries have on average lighter eye pigmentation than individuals from Southern European countries.

 

[jackelgull]

Given that race and ethnicity are a source of considerable fuzziness and ethnicity correlates with a wide range of personal concerns, I'd say it'll remain a something for a while. As the ethnicity barriers break down I expect we'll continue to see the melting of races into each other being considered less and less of a big thing. But this reaction to shame and label, it's just out of this century.

So your argument boils down to racists are people too. Which is a fair point, I admit. People are complicated, and they may hold erroneous beliefs for good reasons. And they can hold "correct" beliefs for bad reasons. But for the people being targeted by these beliefs it may be hard to look at it from the other person's point of view.

 

[Traitorfish]

I think what TF is saying is that people shouldn't have race as a reason for not wanting to date people, not that they don't have the right to. I mean, personal relationships shouldn't be subject to the politics of race.

Yeah, I mean, there are two basic rules that apply to personal lives: 1, do what you want, and 2, don't be a dick. Being a racist is a specific species of being-a-dick, and while the first prevents us from forcing them to change their dickish ways, that hardly absolves them of it. Let's remember, the issue isn't a person simply happening not to date outside of their race, it's their refusing to. The first is circumstance, the latter is bigotry.

People have a right to be mouldering, noxious bigots, and I have a right to hold that against them.

Oh sure, I'm positive TF is not saying we should arrange for forcing women to have romantic encounters with certain men. There's a different word for that. But still, I'm quite positive society has spent enough years telling women what their appropriate concerns are when it comes to mate selection. I am, quite frankly, unimpressed with this attitude dressed up in fresh clean wool.

Oh, come off it, nobody's buying that. "Don't be racist" is just a call for basic decency, like "don't hit people" or "don't crap yourself on the bus". Like I say above, it's just "don't be a dick", applied specifically. That isn't condescending to women any more than it is to men, it's just asking them to take their autonomy seriously.

 

[Narz]

Not wanting to screw everybody of every shape, size & ethnic origin doesn't make you racist, people are allowed to have sexual preferences!!!1!!!!11!

 

[Traitorfish]

I agree. But that's not the issue, it's the explicit formulation: "I only date X race".

People have their preferences, and they have them for reasons which are too complex to generalise about. If your preferences tend to line up with racial categories, you might want to take a step back and examine them, but that's just the result of living in a society with a lot of ugly history, it's not a personal failing so long as you acknowledge it. Maybe try not to be too complacent, maybe try to challenge your own presumptions about what is and is not beautiful, but it's all really up to you.

The problem comes when you enact a personal Jim Crow, draw a line and say "I only date people who meet X racial requirements". That's racism, that is an explicit policy of racial discrimination, and that's a choice that somebody makes and can therefore be held accountable for.

 

[plarq]

Does favorism count as racism? I like Persian women...

 

[BvBPL]

Never mind.

 

[Commodore]

I agree. But that's not the issue, it's the explicit formulation: "I only date X race".

People have their preferences, and they have them for reasons which are too complex to generalise about. If your preferences tend to line up with racial categories, you might want to take a step back and examine them, but that's just the result of living in a society with a lot of ugly history, it's not a personal failing so long as you acknowledge it. Maybe try not to be too complacent, maybe try to challenge your own resumptions about what is and is not beautiful, but it's all really up to you.

The problem comes when you enact a personal Jim Crow, draw a line and say "I only date people who meet X racial requirements". That's racism, that is an explicit policy of racial discrimination, and that's a choice that somebody makes and can therefore be held accountable for.

What exactly are you arguing for here? Why should someone be "held accountable" for a personal choice about who they will or will not get romantically involved with? And while we are on the subject: How exactly should someone, in your opinion, be "held accountable" for choosing to exclusively date members of one race?

 

[JollyRoger]

I agree. But that's not the issue, it's the explicit formulation: "I only date X race".

Are you sexist in your dating preferences? How about ageist?

 

[caketastydelish]

This is mind-boggling absurd. Would "I only hire whites for my business" be racist? OF COURSE. After all it is just "there business" and therefore "there choice".

"I only want whites on my sports team" etc would be racist.

This isn't rocket science. If you specify a "this race only" policy it's obviously racist by definition of how racism works.

 

[caketastydelish]

Are you sexist in your dating preferences? How about ageist?

Sexuality and race are two completely different subjects, we've been over this before.

 

[jackelgull]

This is mind-boggling absurd. Would "I only hire whites for my business" be racist? OF COURSE. After all it is just "there business" and therefore "there choice".

"I only want whites on my sports team" etc would be racist.

This isn't rocket science. If you specify a "this race only" policy it's obviously racist by definition of how racism works.

There's a difference between I won't serve a gay man in my restaurant and I won't sleep with gay man. Sexuality should never be shamed by the rest of society. If it were me, and I was really feeling the burn, I might be tempted to ask for more clarification, like, do you think I'm a conservative patriarch or the like? Actually, I probably wouldn't even do that.

 

[Commodore]

This is mind-boggling absurd. Would "I only hire whites for my business" be racist? OF COURSE. After all it is just "there business" and therefore "there choice".

"I only want whites on my sports team" etc would be racist.

This isn't rocket science. If you specify a "this race only" policy it's obviously racist by definition of how racism works.

What is absurd is trying to shoehorn racial preferences in dating into the same category as a business denying someone employment due to their race. You want to try to shame people for actually exercising their free will in their OWN PERSONAL LIFE, simply because you were rejected by a woman/women you were attracted to because of your race.

When we say what you are describing is not racism, what we are really saying is it's not the type of racism you are making it out to be. People should never be made to feel guilty about their preferences for a romantic partner, nor should they be shamed into changing their preferences simply to satisfy some warped sense of social justice. The fact that you are advocating for such shaming by saying people with racial preferences for dating need to be "called out" makes YOU the real monster in this debate, not the ones you wish to "call out."

 

[caketastydelish]

There's a difference between I won't serve a gay man in my restaurant and I won't sleep with gay man. Sexuality should never be shamed by the rest of society. If it were me, and I was really feeling the burn, I might be tempted to ask for more clarification, like, do you think I'm a conservative patriarch or the like? Actually, I probably wouldn't even do that.

Again: Sexuality and gender are particularly intertwined in a way race and sexuality are not.

 

[Narz]

maybe try to challenge your own presumptions about what is and is not beautiful, but it's all really up to you.

I'm 35, I know what I like. I'll sleep with a girl of any race at least once just for the hell of it but I know what I prefer.

If your preferences tend to line up with racial categories, you might want to take a step back and examine them, but that's just the result of living in a society with a lot of ugly history, it's not a personal failing so long as you acknowledge it.

Not everything has to do with society. In the 90's stick thin was in. Now it's "all about that base", my preferences haven't changed. I notice I don't like women who look too much like me (tall, lanky, Western European), I tend to like shorter Eastern European/Italian girls. I prefer white girls to black but if I'm gonna date a black girl I'd rather her have her natural hair (even though 'society says' she should straighten it).

My body decides not my mind, if a girl doesn't smell right or her kiss doesn't taste right I lose interest. Probably these hardline "I'm only interested in dating white/black/French/Arab guys" folks are missing out but life is short & not everyone gets a chance. People don't have to try everything & no one owes anyone a date/kiss/handjob/whatever.

The problem comes when you enact a personal Jim Crow, draw a line and say "I only date people who meet X racial requirements". That's racism, that is an explicit policy of racial discrimination, and that's a choice that somebody makes and can therefore be held accountable for.

Discrimination is not a bad thing when it comes to who you let in bed with you. If I find Chinese ladies the most delish & only want to date them it is, to quote Salt n' Pepa, none of your business!

 

[caketastydelish]

What is absurd is trying to shoehorn racial preferences in dating into the same category as a business denying someone employment due to their race. You want to try to shame people for actually exercising their free will in their OWN PERSONAL LIFE, simply because you were rejected by a woman/women you were attracted to because of your race.

When we say what you are describing is not racism, what we are really saying is it's not the type of racism you are making it out to be. People should never be made to feel guilty about their preferences for a romantic partner, nor should they be shamed into changing their preferences simply to satisfy some warped sense of social justice. The fact that you are advocating for such shaming by saying people with racial preferences for dating need to be "called out" makes YOU the real monster in this debate, not the ones you wish to "call out."

Firstly I do not cry out (or even remotely suspect) "racism" every time a white girl rejects me. They have to go out of their way to specifically mention race themselves. If they don't mention race, I don't think they're racist. I only presume people are racist if they actually say a racist thing. If someone is a closet racist, I have no way to know.

But yes, I am the "the REAL monster" (I'd honestly be surprised if you don't get infracted for that flame) for calling out blatant racist comments when I see them.

Knock yourself out.

And again, "old fashioned" or "the way I was raised" is hardly the same thing as "non-white guys tend to not look hot to me". I'm honestly astonished that either you all are racists yourselves, or you lack the ability to read.