Ferguson

[Paul in Saudi]

So you do not like people who petition the government for a redress of grievance? Why?

 

[Gori the Grey]

Not that I understand why the deck is so stacked against the accused, we'd be disgusted with a court that convicted people after denying them a defense. I would anyway, so the grand jury system already seems skewed to me.

The grand jury doesn't convict, just determines whether there's enough evidence for the case to go to trial.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The grand jury doesn't convict, just determines whether there's enough evidence for the case to go to trial.

Where a jury selected from a public that is steeped as often as possible in 'if he wasn't guilty there wouldn't be an indictment' will hear the case.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Where a jury selected from a public that is steeped as often as possible in 'if he wasn't guilty there wouldn't be an indictment' will hear the case.

I'm not sure. I've served on a jury and then on a grand jury, and when I was on the jury, I hadn't even been aware that there had been the preliminary step. I just took the case up on its own merits. Now that I've been on a grand jury, if I'm ever on a jury again, I'll know that all the indictment means is that a majority of people on the grand jury thought it possible that a crime could conceivably have been committed (but it's still up to me to determine whether one has).

 

[Berzerker]

So you do not like people who petition the government for a redress of grievance? Why?

The 1st Amendment doesn't protect jury tampering, they're giving jurors reason to fear making an unpopular decision.

The grand jury doesn't convict, just determines whether there's enough evidence for the case to go to trial.

Yes, I know... I was referring to the difference between a conviction and indictment and how the latter seems skewed to me.

 

[warpus]

I thought this was worth it to post even though its kind of a delayed response. The answer to the two questions asked is YES! I was in that area three weeks ago and had to be escorted away from a walmart that was being shut down because looters attempted to loot the place at about 830 at night. Luckily enough police officers were able to respond quickly enough to safeguard the business and the people like me and a few of my friends who were in there shopping when the mass crowd came out of no where. On that same note, from what I gathered from the people in the area was that the police were trying to de-publicize the events that have been occurring to try and subdue the violence, but this clearly isn't working. The other question is this a just in case yes, if this officer is found innocent we will see my hometown burn itself to the ground, as sad as that is. I would bet that even if he is found guilty there will be some level of violence.

Mind you also, the same night I was at that walmart a different set of protesters were across the river trying to loot a series of businesses leading up to a Casino. Needless to say Police put that one down with a quickness.

That's pretty scary.. Glad you're ok. Thanks for the informative response, sounds like a spark could set things off down there.. Crazy stuff..

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I'm not sure. I've served on a jury and then on a grand jury, and when I was on the jury, I hadn't even been aware that there had been the preliminary step. I just took the case up on its own merits. Now that I've been on a grand jury, if I'm ever on a jury again, I'll know that all the indictment means is that a majority of people on the grand jury thought it possible that a crime could conceivably have been committed (but it's still up to me to determine whether one has).

While everything you say is objectively true, and you strike me as someone with the intellectual integrity to apply it, the public is indeed totally steeped in 'if they weren't guilty they wouldn't have been investigated, much less indicted'. Watch some cop shows on TV.

If you ask for an attorney, you are guilty.

Cops routinely break in without a warrant, but always find overwhelming evidence when they do and justice could never be served if they didn't.

Then watch the news. When cops announce an arrest, is there any doubt expressed that the person arrested is guilty? Any indication that the police are going to investigate further because there is any chance the case isn't closed? How often does 'found not guilty' make the news compared to 'found guilty', 'sentencing hearing', 'sentenced'...if the case is low profile only 'guilty' has any chance of being reported. If it is high enough profile that 'not guilty' would be news then it is high profile enough that a guilty verdict will be revisited at every subsequent step in the proceedings. Just the way prosecutors like it.

 

[Gori the Grey]

That's pretty scary.. Glad you're ok. Thanks for the informative response, sounds like a spark could set things off down there.. Crazy stuff..

And, according to the news tonight, 68 other cities that have protests planned should the grand jury not vote to indict.

And, Tim, I don't disagree with the gist of a lot of what you're saying but this point

When cops announce an arrest, is there any doubt expressed that the person arrested is guilty?

doesn't strike me as accurate. I think news reports go out of their way to stress that a person has been accused, but is innocent until proven guilty.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

And, Tim, I don't disagree with the gist of a lot of what you're saying but this point



doesn't strike me as accurate. I think news reports go out of their way to stress that a person has been accused, but is innocent until proven guilty.

Observe cases that are high enough profile that the actual news conference makes it on air. The media may try to soften it, but when the cops speak they ride as close to the line as they can get without blatantly violating due process. There is an absolute sense of 'we got the guy'.

Even when there is some sort of effort to protect the rights of the accused...have you ever heard a cop use the now politically required phrase 'person of interest' instead of 'suspect'? If you hear any difference between 'person of interest' 'suspect' and 'vile criminal' in their tone they are clearly not up to speed in talking to the press. When a seasoned public affairs officer says 'he's a person of interest' skilled stenographers have to erase 'vile criminal' from their notes.

 

[Kaitzilla]

"NOW, THEREFORE, I, JEREMIAH W. (JAY) NIXON, GOVERNOR OF THE STATE OF MISSOURI, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Constitution and Laws of the State of Missouri, including Sections 44.010 through 44.130, RSMo, do hereby declare a State of Emergency exists in the State of Missouri."

http://governor.mo.gov/news/executive-orders/executive-order-14-14

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/nov/17/missouri-governor-state-of-emergency-ferguson

Obviously this thing is going to trial and the governor is just being cautious.

 

[Berzerker]

I haven't been paying much attention but I believe its going to trial, unless they have witnesses who saw the kid turn and run at the cop. Thats assuming of course it was legal for him to shoot at the kid when he ran away. If Brown stopped and gave up the killing cant be justified.

 

[Paul in Saudi]

So the governor has mobilized elements of the National Guard. As much as I hate to see soldiers on the streets, I have to admit the local police need all the help they can get.

 

[Angst]

So the governor has mobilized elements of the National Guard. As much as I hate to see soldiers on the streets, I have to admit the local police need all the help they can get.

The police's so-called "riot control" is abysmally handled, provoking, threatening and offensive, which is at least a reason why the riots haven't become under control yet. The National Guard, if used, might be better able to not screw up the situation. This is not the rioters' fault. The police has handled everything terribly.

 

[Paul in Saudi]

Did you also note the governor said the three agencies (SHP, STLCPD and Ferguson PD?) would be equals in their joint command post? So no one person will be in charge. This is really a bad idea.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Did you also note the governor said the three agencies (SHP, STLCPD and Ferguson PD?) would be equals in their joint command post? So no one person will be in charge. This is really a bad idea.

I read it as 'the National Guard will handle this while you losers sit in the command post and don't cause any trouble', which I think is probably the only chance for things to work out. The problem is that the NG eventually will leave, and unless the police departments get some major reworking in the next thirty days the problem is just being delayed, not solved.

 

[luiz]

Hum, I haven't been following this at all, but is there any reason why this wouldn't go to trial? I mean, maybe there isn't enough evidence to convict the cop. I'm fine with that outcome. But he did shoot an unarmed kid and there's no evidence (that I know of) that the kid was actually attacking him when he did so (and in fact it doesn't make any sense to me that an unarmed kid would attack an armed cop, but oh well). How can this not result in a trial?

 

[warpus]

And, according to the news tonight, 68 other cities that have protests planned should the grand jury not vote to indict.

Are all those 68 cities in the same state??

Man, those people really feel like society has got them by the balls, huh? This seems to be indicative of a much larger problem. I'm afraid that unless those problems are addressed, there is going to be more violence in the future.

And the sad thing? Oftentimes it is large-scale violence that truly brings true change (Arab spring, death of communism in eastern europe, etc.)

I am going to be watching this with a bit more interest now.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Are all those 68 cities in the same state??

Man, those people really feel like society has got them by the balls, huh? This seems to be indicative of a much larger problem. I'm afraid that unless those problems are addressed, there is going to be more violence in the future.

And the sad thing? Oftentimes it is large-scale violence that truly brings true change (Arab spring, death of communism in eastern europe, etc.)

I am going to be watching this with a bit more interest now.

No they aren't all in the same state, and yes, police departments that operate from 'shooting citizens is just part of the job' are commonplace in the US.

And yes, it is sad that widespread violence is likely to be the only thing that can lead to changing that.

 

[Paul in Saudi]

I read it as 'the National Guard will handle this while you losers sit in the command post and don't cause any trouble', which I think is probably the only chance for things to work out.

The NG hardly will enter into it. They idea is they will cover guard duties at fire stations, hospitals and so on. The police thus freed up will then be able to see if they can handle the second set of protests better than they did the first.

 

[sophie]

Hum, I haven't been following this at all, but is there any reason why this wouldn't go to trial? I mean, maybe there isn't enough evidence to convict the cop. I'm fine with that outcome. But he did shoot an unarmed kid and there's no evidence (that I know of) that the kid was actually attacking him when he did so (and in fact it doesn't make any sense to me that an unarmed kid would attack an armed cop, but oh well). How can this not result in a trial?

Because the guy is a cop, and law enforcement protect their own. Considering all the other occasions in which a police officer shot a black man and everything was swept under the rug, it is only because of the protesting and the fact that this became national news that this is going to trial at all.

You can see it in the initial Ferguson PD handling of the situation. The officer's name was not released and he was put on a temporary suspension. Then [feces] hit the fan and suddenly the name went public and THEN it went to trial after the Ferguson PD repeatedly tried to throw shade on everybody EXCEPT Wilson.

Better hope they throw the book at the guy

NSFW: Truth

Spoiler :

Link to video.