Ferguson

Hum, I haven't been following this at all, but is there any reason why this wouldn't go to trial? I mean, maybe there isn't enough evidence to convict the cop. I'm fine with that outcome. But he did shoot an unarmed kid and there's no evidence (that I know of) that the kid was actually attacking him when he did so (and in fact it doesn't make any sense to me that an unarmed kid would attack an armed cop, but oh well). How can this not result in a trial?

None of us has seen the transcripts so we don't know what exactly is being presented at the grand jury. But leaked reports say there was bullet holes and blood inside the patrol car backing up the officer's version that he was attacked while he was in his car.

As to whether that justified any shots down after that, outside of the car, we will have to wait to see the evidence and transcripts.
 
Hum, I haven't been following this at all, but is there any reason why this wouldn't go to trial? I mean, maybe there isn't enough evidence to convict the cop. I'm fine with that outcome. But he did shoot an unarmed kid and there's no evidence (that I know of) that the kid was actually attacking him when he did so (and in fact it doesn't make any sense to me that an unarmed kid would attack an armed cop, but oh well). How can this not result in a trial?

We don't have all the evidence that the Grand Jury has, so if the evidence is weak enough, then they will say he shouldn't go to trial. We don't have trials just for the sake of them, or we shouldn't.
 
We don't have all the evidence that the Grand Jury has, so if the evidence is weak enough, then they will say he shouldn't go to trial. We don't have trials just for the sake of them, or we shouldn't.
A dead body and a confession of the killing seems evidence enough to me for a trial.
 
But who knows what secrets that ham sandwich may hold?
 
You have to be careful about indicting a white bread ham sandwich. You get a bunch of Duke lacrosse supporters discovering the injustice system for the first time.
 
The grand jury is supposed to determine whether the evidence presented is sufficient to warrant a trial (or the balance of evidence indicates a criminal act has occurred, the specific language can vary by state), not prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt (the standard for a regular jury, sometimes confused in TV reporting on this). With the dead body, the weapon bagged and tagged, autopsy reports indicating bullets fired from that weapon killed the guy, several eyewitnesses, and yes, the officer stating he did the deed, it seems like there is a sufficient body of evidence to warrant a trial.
 
The grand jury is supposed to determine whether the evidence presented is sufficient to warrant a trial (or the balance of evidence indicates a criminal act has occurred, the specific language can vary by state), not prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt (the standard for a regular jury, sometimes confused in TV reporting on this). With the dead body, the weapon bagged and tagged, autopsy reports indicating bullets fired from that weapon killed the guy, several eyewitnesses, and yes, the officer stating he did the deed, it seems like there is a sufficient body of evidence to warrant a trial.

From your own observations...all that evidence you mention certainly demonstrates that there was a shooting, but not necessarily a criminal act.

The issue here is that if a shooting is performed by a police officer it may not be a criminal act, and the people entrusted with making that determination are not grand juries or trial juries. That determination is typically made by the police. The problem in Ferguson is that the police apparently can't be trusted to make that determination.
 
You have to be careful about indicting a white bread ham sandwich. You get a bunch of Duke lacrosse supporters discovering the injustice system for the first time.

How many more Tom Wolfe references can a guy make at once?
 
Because the guy is a cop, and law enforcement protect their own. Considering all the other occasions in which a police officer shot a black man and everything was swept under the rug, it is only because of the protesting and the fact that this became national news that this is going to trial at all.

You can see it in the initial Ferguson PD handling of the situation. The officer's name was not released and he was put on a temporary suspension. Then [feces] hit the fan and suddenly the name went public and THEN it went to trial after the Ferguson PD repeatedly tried to throw shade on everybody EXCEPT Wilson.

Better hope they throw the book at the guy

I hope they make a decision based on the factual evidence and only the factual evidence.
 
This whole process seems completely alien to me from here in NJ. Grand juries always and I mean always approve a case to go to trail, they've been considering abolishing them for nearly 40 years now because they're seemingly worthless (I'm pretty sure other states have already). What the hell is going on that is stalling the case?
 
This whole process seems completely alien to me from here in NJ. Grand juries always and I mean always approve a case to go to trail, they've been considering abolishing them for nearly 40 years now because they're seemingly worthless (I'm pretty sure other states have already). What the hell is going on that is stalling the case?

Oh really? :mischief: http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/26/justice/new-jersey-tanning-case/

And that she is a person of color is a bonus I would guess. :mischief:
 
Oh really? :mischief: http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/26/justice/new-jersey-tanning-case/

And that she is a person of color is a bonus I would guess. :mischief:

This is literally the 1st time I've heard a grand jury not indict someone. Congratulations for finding one case. When I had to serve on a GJ this summer we had over 50ish cases (almost all petty drug crimes but that's normal) I was one of two people who voted no. At all. That's normal from all other people I know as well. IIRC the rate is 99% so this shouldn't be taking this long. There's no such thing as a defense in a grand jury. Thanks for not answering the question BTW. :rolleyes:
 
Finding one barely relevant exception is a MobBoss specialty. Not answering the question is another.
 
This whole process seems completely alien to me from here in NJ. Grand juries always and I mean always approve a case to go to trail, they've been considering abolishing them for nearly 40 years now because they're seemingly worthless (I'm pretty sure other states have already). What the hell is going on that is stalling the case?


1. The Shortcomings of Statistics



Those who claim that grand juries fail to screen effectively often point to statistics to support this view.[74] Most commonly, they note that an extremely high percentage of cases submitted to grand juries result in indictments. The numbers are impressive: during fiscal 1984, for example, federal grand juries returned 17,419 indictments and only sixty-eight no bills,[75] an astounding 99.6% success rate. Statistics from other years are in accord.[76] Even in the rare instances when the grand jury refused to indict, it is not clear that the jurors were rejecting the prosecutor's recommendation; in some of these cases even the prosecutor apparently agreed that a true bill should not be returned.[77] For some critics these numbers are persuasive evidence of the grand jury's ineffectiveness.[78]

Yet even brief reflection shows how unhelpful these figures are. That grand juries nearly always return true bills may indeed demonstrate that jurors simply approve whatever charges the government submits, but it could also show that grand juries are a great success. A review of the prosecutor's decisionmaking leading up to the request for an indictment shows why.

Federal prosecutors know that virtually all of their charging decisions must be approved by the grand jury. Thus, in deciding which charges to bring, the prosecutor must determine not only which accusations can be proven at trial, but also which accusations will result in an indictment. If we assume that prosecutors as a group will normally decline to present charges to a grand jury that they think will be rejected, we would expect that prosecutors would submit only those cases that are sufficiently strong to survive a grand jury's review. Thus, regardless of whether the grand jury is serving as an effective screen, we would expect a high percentage of the cases presented to lead to indictments.[79]

Indeed, contrary to the suggestion of critics, there would be cause for concern if grand juries refused to indict in a high percentage of cases. A high rejection rate would mean either that the prosecutor failed to evaluate the case properly, and therefore could not determine in advance whether a case was strong or weak,[80] or that the grand jury was so unpredictable that reasonable prosecutors could not anticipate when a true bill would be returned. In the former case the grand jury might be thought to be fulfilling its screening role, despite the prosecutor's troubling performance, but in the latter case the higher percentage of no bills would not be a reliable sign that the screening function was working.

http://www.freedomlaw.com/archives/oldsite/GRANDJRY.html
 
a slightly OT question from someone ignorant of US legal procedures: What's the difference between a jury and a grand jury? are there more jurors in it? are they composed differently? or what?
 
Grisu, bear in mind I am not a legal mind, just a common citizen so I may be off here. But anyway, a grand jury is basically just a group of citizens that looks at what a prosecutor puts before them and decides whether or not there is indeed justification for a trial.

Someone allegedly does something wrong > Prosecutor looks over details of case and decides whether or not to prosecute > If decides to prosecute, submits case to grand jury for final approval before going to actual trial > grand jury decides whether prosecutor is doing job or is smoking crack.

They -should- almost always indict because otherwise the prosecutor is not doing his/her job well, as Bamspeedy's quote mentioned.
 
I served on one.

There's a lower standard for your verdict: "on this evidence, could a reasonable person believe a crime might have been committed." So, by that standard, we would always vote yes (as I now read grand juries from around the country routinely do). That annoyed me for a while. But then I came to the conclusion, represented in Bamspeedy's quote, that the grand jury was doing its job, not through its judgments, but just through its existing at all. Yeah, prosecutors only bother to bring the cases that they know are going to meet that standard. I concluded that it was a valuable service, not in judging the individual cases, but in generally keeping law enforcement from going after people on insufficient evidence, trumped-up charges, etc.

So I've not been able to imagine how the Ferguson grand jury won't indict. It may well be that the prosecutor would love to get his police officer buddy off the hook. And I don't sell lawyers short in being able to sway juries by how they frame the evidence. And I never had a case remotely like this, so I don't know what law will be read to them regarding any special exemptions for police officers; that could make a difference. But to present evidence at all, which is what the prosecutors do here, is to present evidence that there is evidence (if that makes any sense), and since that's all grand juries are really passing on, again, I don't see how there won't be an indictment.
 
Grisu, bear in mind I am not a legal mind, just a common citizen so I may be off here. But anyway, a grand jury is basically just a group of citizens that looks at what a prosecutor puts before them and decides whether or not there is indeed justification for a trial.

Someone allegedly does something wrong > Prosecutor looks over details of case and decides whether or not to prosecute > If decides to prosecute, submits case to grand jury for final approval before going to actual trial > grand jury decides whether prosecutor is doing job or is smoking crack.

They -should- almost always indict because otherwise the prosecutor is not doing his/her job well, as Bamspeedy's quote mentioned.

ah I see now, thanks. So it's not yet an actuall trial yet but just a trial to see if a trial is warranted?
 
Basically, yes. In this particular case, the system has apparently been polluted by media and whatnot, so it -had- to go to a grand jury no matter what simply because even if the prosecutor didn't feel there was just cause to prosecute, to not do so would have caused riots and whatnot. Of course, that's going to happen anyway...
 
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