Ferguson

[Timsup2nothin]

My point, the one that you apparently didn't grasp, was that anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.

And therefore the relevance of your anecdote is....?

I thought your point was pretty clear. Your belief is the opposite of mine. Therefore you believe unprovoked attacks on cops are a relatively common occurrence compared to cops being intimidating and provocative in their dealings with the public. In other words, in your eagerness to disagree with me you coughed up one anecdote and took a position that pretty much anyone can see is absurd.

Well done bub.

 

[Berzerker]

Most cops that have gotten snotty with me have put their hand conspicuously on their gun. One actually pulled it out. I'm a very confident guy, but I have little doubt about who would have survived those encounters to give testimony had they turned ugly.

they didn't start a fight...you were claiming they'd start the fight first and lose and then pull a gun. just aint logical

 

[JollyRoger]

I've heard contradictory stories about that. I haven't kept up with this news enough to know which version was accurate.

The story put out by law enforcement is inaccurate and they haven't publicly corrected it.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

they didn't start a fight...you were claiming they'd start the fight first and lose and then pull a gun. just aint logical

They do and say things that for someone without a gun and badge would start a fight...relying on the gun and badge to keep a fight from starting...and end it favorably if it does. They don't have to 'wait until they are losing'. As soon as it even looks like things aren't going their way anything from a baton beating to a four on one beating to an outright shooting is going to be counted as justified...because 'resisted arrest'.

If I didn't make clear what I was saying the first time I apologize.

 

[James Stuart]

The story put out by law enforcement is inaccurate and they haven't publicly corrected it.

Now, that's a different situation then, isn't it? As I said, I haven't been following this case - I'm Australian and have had very little interest in the situation aside from a passing one - but obviously the information that I've read is either inaccurate or deliberately falsified. I'm interested in the end result of this situation, so I'll have to keep a closer eye on it from now on.

This does not change my opinion on my other comments.

 

[Kyriakos]

So, is the national guard deployed already? Or would Christmas be a better time? (thanksgiving, hmmm).

 

[Commodore]

The story put out by law enforcement is inaccurate and they haven't publicly corrected it.

So is the story put out by the Brown family and the witnesses/protestors. What's your point?

Both sides are engaging in damage control and spin doctoring in this situation, but from the evidence that has been leaked so far, the case to indict the officer stands upon pretty flimsy ground.

If Michael Brown hadn't actually gotten in a physical altercation with officer Wilson and had just resisted arrest by running away, then there is no doubt Wilson would be going to jail for this. But if you physically attack a police officer and try to take his weapon away from him, you would be extremely hard-pressed to find a grand jury that wouldn't see the use of lethal force as justified.

For better or worse, if you attack a police officer, there is a significant chance you are going to end up dead and no one in the criminal justice system is going to see you as the victim.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

If Michael Brown hadn't actually gotten in a physical altercation with officer Wilson and had just resisted arrest by running away, then there is no doubt Wilson would be going to jail for this.

Ummmm...I have doubts.

I agree it is far less likely that he would be dead, but there is still no guarantee that he wouldn't, or that a shooting board wouldn't find the shooting justified. "I was chasing him, he stopped and appeared to be reaching for his waistband, I thought he was reaching for a weapon, and I shot him" is pretty standard fare.

 

[James Stuart]

Breaking.

Ferguson grand jury reaches decision on Michael Brown shooting

Prosecuting attorney to hold press conference on Monday but may not immediately say whether police officer Darren Wilson has been indicted

A grand jury has reached its long-awaited decision on whether or not to charge the white police officer who shot dead an unarmed black 18-year-old in Ferguson, Missouri, according to a source.

Bob McCulloch, the prosecuting attorney for St Louis County, is expected to hold a press conference later on Monday. It is unclear whether he will immediately announce whether officer Darren Wilson has been indicted for killing Michael Brown on 9 August.

Governor Jay Nixon is also reportedly planning a public appearance. A public filing showed that he was due to fly into St Louis on his official plane later on Monday afternoon.

Brown’s death was followed by nights of intense clashes between police and protesters. Several witnesses told media that the 18-year-old had surrendered to Wilson after fleeing a confrontation at the officer’s patrol vehicle. Some said that Brown had his hands up.

Wilson is believed to have told jurors that Brown assaulted him at his SUV and then threatened to do him further harm.

Authorities in Ferguson have been braced for more protests over the jury’s decision because many protesters said that they assumed Wilson would not be charged. Several demonstrators have been arrested in the past week during small protests at the police headquarters.

Evidence relating to the shooting was presented to grand jurors at weekly sessions for more than three months. The 12-person panel was considering a range of charges against Wilson, 28, including manslaughter and murder.

 

[dutchfire]

Governor Jay Nixon is also reportedly planning a public appearance. A public filing showed that he was due to fly into St Louis on his official plane later on Monday afternoon.

Seems like proper use of tax payer money.

 

[James Stuart]

Seems like proper use of tax payer money.

Maybe he's altering one of those nuclear bombers for the occasion?

 

[JollyRoger]

So is the story put out by the Brown family and the witnesses/protestors. What's your point?

Both sides are engaging in damage control and spin doctoring in this situation, but from the evidence that has been leaked so far, the case to indict the officer stands upon pretty flimsy ground.

If Michael Brown hadn't actually gotten in a physical altercation with officer Wilson and had just resisted arrest by running away, then there is no doubt Wilson would be going to jail for this. But if you physically attack a police officer and try to take his weapon away from him, you would be extremely hard-pressed to find a grand jury that wouldn't see the use of lethal force as justified.

For better or worse, if you attack a police officer, there is a significant chance you are going to end up dead and no one in the criminal justice system is going to see you as the victim.

35 feet (police lie) vs. 148 feet (documented distance) - self defense in altercation vs. unjustified killing

Brown was eventually shot about 35 feet away from the vehicle

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/11/us/missouri-ferguson-michael-brown-what-we-know/index.html

 

[Berzerker]

is that cone sitting on blood stains right of the main one where I assume he died?

if so it looks like Brown moved toward the cop a few feet before falling, but not much.... fairly consistent with the audio of the gunshots.

where was Wilson in that pic?

thats a long distance to run, I would think safety concerns would dictate waiting for Brown to get close before spraying the neighborhood with another volley.

 

[JollyRoger]

Yeah, there are pics that show the body and how far away the car is. That spot is where he died.

 

[Berzerker]

TV said this prosecutor is 0-4 trying to indict cops for shootings

I think he's gonna win one finally, even if he aint trying to win

cop should have waited for Brown to get closer, leaves no doubt about self defense

besides, after that big kid ran 100 yds he'd be tuckered out by the time he got back to Wilson

 

[Angst]

I live in a community where a black man murdered 4 of our police officers as they were sitting down for breakfast and coffee not two miles from where I live.

So yeah, I guess my view is just as unique as yours is...just the polar opposite.

It's widely accounted by us continentals that Americans visiting Europe act ridiculously terrified when approached by European police. It is simply because your police is comparably violent and threatening. And do know that being violent and threatening increases the chance of some person you are trying to calm down and/or arrest attacking you.

And yea, as you said. Your anecdote is an anecdote. And I'm well aware my point does not apply there. Do not blind your view with a single experience within your community. Especially not one that has consequences with racist overtones.

 

[Angst]

Ummmm...I have doubts.

I agree it is far less likely that he would be dead, but there is still no guarantee that he wouldn't, or that a shooting board wouldn't find the shooting justified. "I was chasing him, he stopped and appeared to be reaching for his waistband, I thought he was reaching for a weapon, and I shot him" is pretty standard fare.

That's a pretty crappy standard. Police is not intended to protect itself. It is intended to prevent crime. The tools and rights provided are only present in order to prevent crime. Each police man is not a stand-your-ground-beacon. Shooting someone, especially lethally, should be the absolute last resort.

 

[KMRblue1027]

That's a pretty crappy standard. Police is not intended to protect itself. It is intended to prevent crime. The tools and rights provided are only present in order to prevent crime. Each police man is not a stand-your-ground-beacon. Shooting someone, especially lethally, should be the absolute last resort.

That's not how it works here in freedom land.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

That's a pretty crappy standard. Police is not intended to protect itself. It is intended to prevent crime. The tools and rights provided are only present in order to prevent crime. Each police man is not a stand-your-ground-beacon. Shooting someone, especially lethally, should be the absolute last resort.

I could not agree more that it is a crappy standard.

 

[MobBoss]

And therefore the relevance of your anecdote is....?

Just as relevant as yours was.

It's widely accounted by us continentals that Americans visiting Europe act ridiculously terrified when approached by European police. It is simply because your police is comparably violent and threatening. And do know that being violent and threatening increases the chance of some person you are trying to calm down and/or arrest attacking you.

And yea, as you said. Your anecdote is an anecdote. And I'm well aware my point does not apply there. Do not blind your view with a single experience within your community. Especially not one that has consequences with racist overtones.

I mentioned this in another thread, but it deserves repeating given your comment here. The absolute worst police beating I ever personally saw was by the German Polizei. Just sayin.