Ferguson

[MobBoss]

First I've heard of it. Fairly clear-cut case of murder, even if he was selling the cigarettes.

Nope. Man-slaughter maybe. Murder? It doesn't reach the specifications needed.

Plus, even proving a man-slaughter charge would be tough as the guy did resist arrest and he fully knew he had health problems. That's called 'failure to mitigate'.

 

[bhsup]

I don't know about New York, but we have involuntary and voluntary manslaughter here in Missouri, IIRC. Also, I -think- negligent homicide. One of those may well be appropriate.

 

[Gary Childress]

that knee jerk situation resulted in the death of someone, wouldn't the prudent thing to do, be let him runaway and then investigate who he was (there has been a lot of focus on investigation in these threads) and then arrest him with twenty cops at dawn some sunday morning, it would be far cheaper than what has happened and there would actually be a trail to examine the matter, instead you have just said that knee jerk reactions are a prudent decision according to the grand jury


what would have been his punishment if he had been charged with assulting a police officer and running away .... not the death penalty, that much I'm sure of

I still think it is just bad training in community policing and what that aims to achive

I didn't say that the knee jerk reaction was the prudent thing to do. I said the jury MAYBE made a prudent decision not to prosecute the officer. Check what I wrote. Maybe the jury should have charged the officer with homicide or something.

I don't like what happened either. On the one hand Michael Brown was considered a "gentle giant" by those who were close to him, on the other side of the coin he had a record of troubled behavior. Michael Brown could have been mentally ill from the sounds of it. I've been mentally ill before myself and you do crazy stuff sometimes in various contexts (though I personally have never engaged in physically violent behavior there are sometimes people with mental illness who sometimes have violent episodes too).

It's a tragedy to be sure but what do you want a police officer to do...sit there and let someone grab at their gun? Brown's behavior was inappropriate.

From what I've seen of interviews with the former officer, he (Wilson) wasn't some sort of monster. He sounds like he was just a young man trying to serve his community who got stuck in a bad situation. I'm not saying all police officers are like Wilson, either. I'm sure there are some rotten apples out there too. It's a case by case thing. I'm just saying this particular instance just appears to be a tragic situation to me and maybe a lot of people are acting like a lynch mob demanding revenge for Brown's death.

The officer resigned. He's no longer on the force, he forfeited what may have been a bright career. He'll no longer be serving his community. He did the honorable thing by resigning.

 

[James Stuart]

Nope. Man-slaughter maybe. Murder? It doesn't reach the specifications needed.

Plus, even proving a man-slaughter charge would be tough as the guy did resist arrest and he fully knew he had health problems. That's called 'failure to mitigate'.

If you start choking someone and they die, it's murder. He wasn't resisting arrest violently, and he repeatedly asked them to get off him and claimed that he couldn't breathe. Surely the half a dozen big tough police officers were under threat from the slow-moving fat guy who was slapping their hands away as they tried to arrest him.

 

[Berzerker]

the choker didn't kill him, when Garner started telling them he couldn't breathe the cop who applied the chokehold had already released his hold... The other cops, ones who apparently got immunity, piled on and thats when Garner said he couldn't breathe.

 

[Smote]

you realize that statement was self-contradictory Berz

 

[Colonel]

If you start choking someone and they die, it's murder. He wasn't resisting arrest violently, and he repeatedly asked them to get off him and claimed that he couldn't breathe. Surely the half a dozen big tough police officers were under threat from the slow-moving fat guy who was slapping their hands away as they tried to arrest him.

I selected some key sections there. You don't resist arrest. I don't think this can get any clearer obey the officers commands and if you believe you have been wronged take them to court! Resisting arrest forces officers to escalate the use of force until the subject is subdued.

Or another bright idea, STOP BREAKING THE LAW!

 

[Berzerker]

how so?

 

[Kennigit]

I am not a lawyer, but I would be happy to see a single case of "failure to mitigate" used in relation to homicide, voluntary, or involuntary manslaughter cases

a few second google search yields exclusively reference to mitigation and breach of contracts, or appeals on sentencing and guilty plea stuff, but not on the actual potential manslaughter

I trust those law-savvy must know more

 

[Smote]

Ah never mind, misinterpreted

 

[James Stuart]

I selected some key sections there. You don't resist arrest. I don't think this can get any clearer obey the officers commands and if you believe you have been wronged take them to court! Resisting arrest forces officers to escalate the use of force until the subject is subdued.

Or another bright idea, STOP BREAKING THE LAW!

He was subdued long before they started smashing his head into the ground.

 

[Antilogic]

Nope. Man-slaughter maybe. Murder? It doesn't reach the specifications needed.

Plus, even proving a man-slaughter charge would be tough as the guy did resist arrest and he fully knew he had health problems. That's called 'failure to mitigate'.

Talk about victim blaming.

I selected some key sections there. You don't resist arrest. I don't think this can get any clearer obey the officers commands and if you believe you have been wronged take them to court! Resisting arrest forces officers to escalate the use of force until the subject is subdued.

Or another bright idea, STOP BREAKING THE LAW!

Yeah, it's totally his fault he resisted being murdered.

 

[Light Cleric]

I don't know why this case wasn't the one getting all the focus in the first place instead of Ferguson. The case is several orders of magnitude stronger and it's far more clear cut what happened given that we actually have video. No, the guy probably shouldn't have resisted arrest but I can definitely understand his frustration since it's not the first time and there really is no defending someone saying "I can't breathe" and not letting them breathe.

well that's not entire true, I have my theories as to why it wasn't but I don't really know

 

[James Stuart]

I don't know why this case wasn't the one getting all the focus in the first place instead of Ferguson. The case is several orders of magnitude stronger and it's far more clear cut what happened given that we actually have video. No, the guy probably shouldn't have resisted arrest but I can definitely understand his frustration since it's not the first time and there really is no defending someone saying "I can't breathe" and not letting them breathe.

well that's not entire true, I have my theories as to why it wasn't but I don't really know

There wre no massive riots in response to this, unlike Ferguson, which is why the latter got more attention.

From the New York Times:

Though Mr. Garner’s death was officially ruled a homicide, it is not possible to pierce the secrecy of the grand jury, and thus to know why the jurors did not believe that criminal charges were appropriate.

What is clear is this was vicious policing and an innocent man is dead. Another conclusion is also obvious. Officer Pantaleo was stripped of his gun and badge; he needs to be stripped of his job. He used forbidden tactics to brutalize a citizen who was not acting belligerently, posed no risk of flight, brandished no weapon and was heavily outnumbered.

 

[Smote]

Actually there's a massive protest going on in NYC right now.

http://new.livestream.com/JamesFromTheInternet/events/3634145

 

[James Stuart]

Actually there's a massive protest going on in NYC right now.

http://new.livestream.com/JamesFromTheInternet/events/3634145

Now. Not months ago.

 

[MobBoss]

If you start choking someone and they die, it's murder. He wasn't resisting arrest violently, and he repeatedly asked them to get off him and claimed that he couldn't breathe. Surely the half a dozen big tough police officers were under threat from the slow-moving fat guy who was slapping their hands away as they tried to arrest him.

James, he didn't die from choking...he died of a heart attack from being obese and the physical exertion......on the way to the hospital.

There is simply no doubt the guy was resisting arrest, and he was also huge in comparison to those trying to arrest him.

By the way, if you can say 'I cant breathe' your're obviously taking in breath to say that. The guy was getting air, but the real problem was him having a heart attack from all the physical effort in resisting arrest.

Talk about victim blaming.

Lets not pretend that when you resist arrest bad things can happen. And it takes a LOT of effort to subdue someone, especially a guy as big as that. Far more than people realize. So by default, you share in the blame of bad things happening if you resist arrest.

He was a huge guy with health problems, he shouldn't have resisted arrest. He wouldn't have had a heart attack and would be alive if he hadn't fought being arrested.

Yeah, it's totally his fault he resisted being murdered.

Words actually have meaning you know. This wouldn't have been murder, so lets not be ignorant and use that term describing this shall we? I suggest saying 'killed'. Far more accurate term given the facts.

 

[Antilogic]

I don't know why this case wasn't the one getting all the focus in the first place instead of Ferguson. The case is several orders of magnitude stronger and it's far more clear cut what happened given that we actually have video. No, the guy probably shouldn't have resisted arrest but I can definitely understand his frustration since it's not the first time and there really is no defending someone saying "I can't breathe" and not letting them breathe.

well that's not entire true, I have my theories as to why it wasn't but I don't really know

Part of the problem here is that we can't wait for the perfect victim to talk about the tactics police are using because people are dying left and right while we do. "It's okay, he was probably guilty of something!" should not be as strong of an argument as it appears to be.



In other, completely unrelated news, I propose a federal-level Judge Dredd Law that says if you are suspected of a crime, you should have the decency to die with 2 bullets or less. Otherwise, we are just wasting taxpayer money.

 

[Light Cleric]

Part of the problem here is that we can't wait for the perfect victim to talk about the tactics police are using because people are dying left and right while we do. "It's okay, he was probably guilty of something!" should not be as strong of an argument as it appears to be.

This guy died before Michael Brown was shot, though. If we wanted to "pick" a victim, for lack of a better word, that incident happened first.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

This guy died before Michael Brown was shot, though. If we wanted to "pick" a victim, for lack of a better word, that incident happened first.

For all of its problems with policing, the people of New York had no reason not to at least wait and see if their judicial system would work. In Ferguson it was a foregone conclusion what was going to happen so the protest started immediately.