football thread No11

[Pangur Bán]

I was referring to the national team there. Perfectly willing to concede it's my paranoia here, but I wouldn't mind if our authorities didn't always take injustice so meekly. I'm sure if more referees were worried about what outraged Scots could do to their careers, we'd get more 'fair' decisions.

 

[Gucumatz]

The Schalke - Dortmund derby was a joy to watch. The Schalke sweeping of Dortmund has to give them confidence for their CL match this week. I am hoping Schalke advance to meet Dortmund somewhere in the CL, (Quarters/Semis) - would be one of the most entertaining CL potential legs to watch

 

[Lambert Simnel]

PB, Ok, "Paranoia" was probably the wrong term to use if we're interpreting my post as being solely a response to your one, and I'm happy to retract it and keep it for another day when you're just talking about the Scottish national team

I think Carras' charge of "selection bias" is worth considering though. Selection bias plays a stronger role in the average football supporter's view of referee/UEFA/FIFA bias than anything else. While I will rail against ref's decisions with the best of them whilst watching teams I like, I honestly don't see any much evidence for conspiracy, nor support for bias due to"naturalism" (I'm really not sure that appropriating that philosophical term is the best way of explaining your point, but that's a separate matter). I accept there are exceptions - e.g. the South Korean team's progress in their home World Cup smacks of some level of bias, conscious or otherwise. Whether you are just kidding yourself and taking selected facts to support your hypothesis I can't really say, but to be fair to Carras, it is something most sports fans suffer from.

 

[Pangur Bán]

I think Carras' charge of "selection bias" is worth considering though. Selection bias plays a stronger role in the average football supporter's view of referee/UEFA/FIFA bias than anything else. While I will rail against ref's decisions with the best of them whilst watching teams I like, I honestly don't see any much evidence for conspiracy, nor support for bias due to"naturalism" (I'm really not sure that appropriating that philosophical term is the best way of explaining your point, but that's a separate matter). I accept there are exceptions - e.g. the South Korean team's progress in their home World Cup smacks of some level of bias, conscious or otherwise. Whether you are just kidding yourself and taking selected facts to support your hypothesis I can't really say, but to be fair to Carras, it is something most sports fans suffer from.

Yeah, I don't think you understand what I meant by 'naturalism' ... which is understandable, I'm using the term in a relatively unfamiliar way, 'behavioral naturalism' (as in the implicit methodology central in biology, anthropology, game theory and economics). It just means theorizing about human / animal behaviour from the point of view of benefits/losses to agents; i.e. ignoring what are or claim to be conscious motives from people in favour of how people benefit or suffer. This is why 'conspiracy' and such pejorative terms are unhelpful; they stress conscious and consciously-orchestrated manipulation ... which is precisely what behavioral naturalism would ignore.

 

[Lambert Simnel]

Actually, I've heard the term behavioural naturalism before (though usually when someone is being somewhat pompous about their interpretation of a movie or a play esp. Abigail's Party and the like). And I get what you're trying to say, and I think it is a useful perspective, but one which, like any other proposed explanation of bias (conscious or unconscious) still relies on perceiving a pattern in the first place; a pattern which (in my view) comes more from the mind of the perceiver than the actual underlying system.

 

[Carras Dad]

guys, i think this is the first time anyone ever discussed the term "natural behavourism" as a result of a discussion about football. ever.

 

[Mise]

We're not...normal.

 

[uppi]

The Schalke - Dortmund derby was a joy to watch. The Schalke sweeping of Dortmund has to give them confidence for their CL match this week. I am hoping Schalke advance to meet Dortmund somewhere in the CL, (Quarters/Semis) - would be one of the most entertaining CL potential legs to watch

The best part about Schalke-Dortmund are the lunch conversations of the two colleagues from the Ruhr area the Monday after.

 

[MCdread]

The problem with the "behavioural naturalist" hypothesis - in this context and in most other fields - is identifying what are the real and meaningful cues, rewards, pressures and interests of the agents involved in the process. Many of the choices and their rationalization appear to be biased or a matter of opinion (I don't think it's obvious the officialdom dislikes England more than other big teams, for example; and it's even less obvious their clubs are at a disadvantage vs. the top clubs from other big countries). It's a fair hypothesis when it comes to the issue of small countries vs. big countries. However, it should be read as 'there is a small probability that club A will get the benefit of the doubt over club B conditional on A being a top club from a top league', in a relatively wide probability distribution.
But even this simple and reasonable idea can be abused, like you were doing the other day Pangur, when discussing Celtic's play-off match in Montevideo, which was just an artifact of the draw and had nothing to do with Celtic being from a small country.

The Schalke - Dortmund derby was a joy to watch. The Schalke sweeping of Dortmund has to give them confidence for their CL match this week. I am hoping Schalke advance to meet Dortmund somewhere in the CL, (Quarters/Semis) - would be one of the most entertaining CL potential legs to watch

I only saw the highlights, but it did seem like a very exciting game. And the teenager Draxler looks like yet another fantastic attacking midfielder German prospect.

 

[Carras Dad]

idk, domestic champs league play offs most often feel rather flat.

 

[Carras Dad]

well, the end of the reign of tiki-taka has been postponed. it will, however, be televised.

 

[nocho]

Quite enjoyable today.

 

[MCdread]

Barcelona much better than in recent games. Taking Messi a bit away from that false 9 position helped, especially in the first half. The sidekicks are world class themselves, so there's no need for him to be the reference of every attacking play. As prolific as he is, he's also become a bottleneck in the big games the past couple of seasons.
But Milan certainly helped a lot... their tactics seemed to be to hope that Barça would be uninspired. Many players were quite poor and overwhelmed by the occasion. Barcelona showed glimpses of their best - of, say 2 years ago - but isn't in full swing... yet. One way or the other, back to being #1 favourites, I guess.

 

[JohannaK]

Loved the match. We played so much better than in the last few games! We still had a few moments where Milan dominated at the end, and we certainly are nowhere near our best from a couple years back but yeah, we showed we still got it.

 

[Gucumatz]

I watched the Schalke game instead today - The defense looked leaky like Schalke tends to do often, but even more so without Jones, Fuchs on the bench, and Matip doing his usual screw-ups.

Gala's 2nd goal was far too easy and nearly entirely to blame on the Schalke Defense and forced Schalke to fight back the entire game. Schalke struck the crossbar a good 3 times and looked like the better side for the last 60 minutes, but to no avail.

Pukki may have been tired, but it didn't make sense to take him off the pitch either. Its a shame, there were some crosses that if Huntelaar had played today (He became injured from the Dortmund derby), that Huntelaar would have finished that Pukki didn't. Ultimately it felt like Gala got lucky today - but it was a great game overall

 

[azzaman333]

Thank you Barca, my betting account needed that.

 

[Takhisis]

thousand posts's enough for a thread on here, right?

well, real madrid just destroyed barca who definitely lack a plan b, as has been feared so often.

the end of the reign of tiki-taka?

You were saying, punk?

(to the tune of 'Go West!') Mou, res, no t'deixarem res (menys la Copa!), Mou, reeees…

 

[JohannaK]

You're sooo behing, Tak. Now it's "Li fotrem quatre gols al Milan! to the tune of the Black Eyed Peas' "I got a Feelin'" Although we already did that...

 

[Mise]

Yeah that was a fantastic display. Very one sided though, would have liked to have seen Milan score (Niang?! Come on!) just so Barca played with a gun to their heads the whole match, but nonetheless a brilliant spectacle.

Milan's left back Constant looked dodgy and Barca exploited him mercilessly through Dani Alves.

 

[Carras Dad]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2013/mar/13/galatasaray-fans-dig-tunnel-schalke

Schalke's sporting director Horst Heldt has confirmed that a group of ticketless Galatasaray fans were caught trying to burrow into their stadium using their bare hands ahead of Tuesday's Champions League match.

well, that is dedication...