Georgian-Russian War: the Western response

[Defiant47]

I'm getting 3 more games Tuesday (Madden 09, Head coach, and probably Fight Night) so that brings my total to 11. How smart is my original argument? Pretty smart still: the only time I had to wait in line because of a shortage was when Grand Theft Auto 4 came out. I know things have changed in Russia economically speaking, but it wasn't too long ago when people had to wait in line for toilet paper.

Can we stop pretending that Russia is a communist state right now, and face the facts?

 

[red_elk]

I'm getting 3 more games Tuesday (Madden 09, Head coach, and probably Fight Night) so that brings my total to 11. How smart is my original argument? Pretty smart still: the only time I had to wait in line because of a shortage was when Grand Theft Auto 4 came out. I know things have changed in Russia economically speaking, but it wasn't too long ago when people had to wait in line for toilet paper.



I'm going to takeaway points for a Russian lecturing me on freedoms and the use of a quote than has been abused over and over for the past 6 years. I still get to vote (or not if I chose-how about that for freedom!) without the threat of political violence or intimidation. I know the President isn't going to chose his successor *cough*putin chose medvedev*cough*

Very smart, I have HDTV, it means that USA is better...

 

[DNK]

Putin didn't choose his successor, he is his successor. He just made a new fad, sort of like PM is the new president!

 

[przemuch]

while i didnt actually say what you quoted me on, i'll answer i dont think russia would be stupid enough to go to war with nato, its a fight that they would lose, making russia think nato would step in should be a succesful bluff

Fixed . Weird things happen to my posts lately

Any misquoting aside - In open NATO-Russian war both sides lose. And those ships wouldn't do anything if just floating and sending threatening messages. Thinking about reversed Cuba then?

 

[BrendanM]

Can we stop pretending that Russia is a communist state right now, and face the facts?

Alright, let's face the facts:

It's acting like the Soviet Union invading Afghanistan or putting down an uprising in '56.

 

[Loki130]

I don't care how much they claim to be trying to protect soveriegnty or freedom or whatnot, NATO would never go to war with Russia over somewhere as small as Georgia. It's just not quite important enough. If Russia really wants South Ossetia, it's going to get it, and NATO won't risk a world war to stop them. It's cruel, but it's the truth.

 

[Zarn]

I don't care how much they claim to be trying to protect soveriegnty or freedom or whatnot, NATO would never go to war with Russia over somewhere as small as Georgia. It's just not quite important enough. If Russia really wants South Ossetia, it's going to get it, and NATO won't risk a world war to stop them. It's cruel, but it's the truth.

You are making it sound like Russia would go through with it, even if NATO intervened.

 

[Loki130]

You are making it sound like Russia would go through with it, even if NATO intervened.

Perhaps I was a bit one-sided; what I said about NATO not going to risk war also goes for Russia. At the moment it's a bit of a bluffing game-neither side will actually go through with war with the other side, so the question is who's going to fold first? And at the moment, Russia's keeping its cards on the table.

 

[C~G]

With 1. and 2. thingy I was actually only illustrating the development of a discussion, to it's end with bickering about fundamentality of "changing the government", but I'll try my best...

- it's pointless to discuss if it constitutes a proof of Russian fault in any other conflict;
- it's as pointless to analyse if rematch is coming just because of Georgia conflict;

Especially since the shelling of Mainila happened almost 70 years ago.

I could argue that Stock Market in US will crash since it has happened before during 1930s but it wouldn't make much sense.

We don't know the situation in Georgia, what exactly happened. Pretty much everything is possible from one extreme to another. I think russians might have pushed it to the point of breaking but I don't trust that pure jackass Georgian president a bit either.

So just like in Mainila, we have to wait and see and let the history books do the writing after this all when the dust has fallen. But before that let's not exaggerate the events and draw parallels to almost ancient events let alone tell parables like we know wtf is going on. It won't help especially if you want to deal this in diplomatic fashion send the message to both russians and georgians that enough is enough.

If you know the russian you know you need to offer both carrot and stick to them. Offer only one and you're pretty much screwed. Not only because they are russians and probably don't give a crap but because they are biggest baddie ("bad" as tough guy not "bad" as "evil") on the block.

That's why throwing Godwin comment on every instance of Sudeten case is sometimes funny but nothing more whatsoever.

No it's Godwin every time you compare something to Nazi Germany.

The whole idea is that the thing you are referring to is basically as evil as Nazis and will thus act accordingly.

For me it's almost as of saying some person is clearly homosexual or otherwise just stupid mofo.

It just shows that person has run pretty much out of argument and all they can do is paint pictures of something with what to shock people and make them believe their argument is for real.

 

[Zarn]

Perhaps I was a bit one-sided; what I said about NATO not going to risk war also goes for Russia. At the moment it's a bit of a bluffing game-neither side will actually go through with war with the other side, so the question is who's going to fold first? And at the moment, Russia's keeping its cards on the table.

I wonder what would happen, if NATO played Russia's little game and flew fighters close to Russian airspace. Maybe NATO can have some armor maneuver practice in the Baltic states. You can never have too much armor maneuver practice.

Since NATO is an organization rather than a state, it is highly unlikely to coordinate anything since there will be political dissension. That is something Russia never has to worry about.

 

[T.A JONES]

So Bush friendly Georgia wants to put down the guns and play nice after gettin their asses spanked. Um no, They get you assets stripped and their asses wipped for being the agressive regime thank you.

After killing as many innocent Russians as Saddam/Bin ladden/whoever, was blamed for in 911, I think Russia has the right to take thier time gettin rid of this 'terrorist' threat.

 

[Loki130]

Personally I think Russia will be able to do what it wants in Georgia, but after that it will really have to watch its steps for a while.

 

[T.A JONES]

Personally I think Russia will be able to do what it wants in Georgia, but after that it will really have to watch its steps for a while.

Very true. They will own a nice junk of oil output once run by Western puppet nation. If they change the sale of that oil to from dollers to the rupee like USA did from Euros to dollers after its little illegal invasion, it may get worse.
If you look here 'Russia drops dollar for rupee'( A very fair refrence) you will see what could happen and truth is, they have been quietly going about this for some time.

If Russia goes full on with this idea well, its just turned into a more potent attack. Also whats stoppin CHavez?. Hes already gone to OPEC with Equadore, complaining the US currecy standard is costing them billions and atleast let them trade in a basket of currencies. With Russia on board they will summon the courage to lay out the non american doller oil bourse they have dreamed about. LIke Iran has done and like Saddam dared try first and was crushed partly because of later .

 

[Commy]

I'm going to takeaway points for a Russian lecturing me on freedoms and the use of a quote than has been abused over and over for the past 6 years. I still get to vote (or not if I chose-how about that for freedom!) without the threat of political violence or intimidation. I know the President isn't going to chose his successor *cough*putin chose medvedev*cough*

Read this and this and this. I think you'll find a lot of interesting information about how US government observing human rights here.

 

[Bill3000]

Read this and this and this. I think you'll find a lot of interesting information about how US government observing human rights here.

And you are lynching Negroes.

...really, has anything changed?

 

[Commy]

And you are lynching Negroes.

...really, has anything changed?

I wanted to say the US is not a democratic state now.
PS Georgia becoming a fascist state...

 

[potatokiosk]

The US does abuse human rights from time to time but Russia does those same abuses and more. Human Rights in Russia

From Wikipedia:

Russian police are regularly observed practicing torture - including beatings, electric shocks, rape, asphyxiation - in interrogating arrested suspects.

Russia also has problems with press freedom that America doesn't have.

So I think it's easier for an American to say Russia is unfree than it is for a Russian to say America is unfree.

 

[przemuch]

No it's Godwin every time you compare something to Nazi Germany.

The whole idea is that the thing you are referring to is basically as evil as Nazis and will thus act accordingly.

For me it's almost as of saying some person is clearly homosexual or otherwise just stupid mofo.

It just shows that person has run pretty much out of argument and all they can do is paint pictures of something with what to shock people and make them believe their argument is for real.

That's not exactly what I had in mind. I was writing about using "Godwin" shield to avoid any comparisons even when something actually was clicking. And it's pointless to compare only if two identical or almost identical objects are on the table.

While "nazi" argument is a problem, it's a problem of someone planting "hidden" message. Throwing every Sudeten comparison away just because of that suspicion is not exactly a way of dealing with comparison itself. And if we can't analyse few similarities without resorting to "OMFG you are comparing Putin to Hitler this way, it's over!" even on half-serious forum then something is clearly wrong.

The funny thing is, I don't really need Sudeten as it's still mixing in too much national, ideological and context differences. It's this ever-present rule that irritates me with setting no-fly zone and killing a fly with cannon - or at least overusing it. What Hitler did after Munich is one lesson. Munich treaty itself - is completely another. If somene goes trolling just because of inability to separate, then it was going to happen soon anyway, with or without "Godwin alert".

Though I admit, I already saw overblown claims that this will go just like Munich with at least one world war in the end . Well... one bright side is, it's still remembered, no matter in how weird way

As for Finland case - actually the significant mark of "other world" (in Europe) is WWI - anything after we can safely bring in to some extent. It even suits our days better with more than just two power players - because we get completely different world in the near past. (limit this to diplomacy, way of resolving crisis and other stuff in such pot)

And I do not need to deal with the topic in diplomatic fashion, this job in my country is already taken That said, stick&carrot solution was something interesting to think about


OT: With present archives policy it's doubtful we'll live long enough to learn about most prominent cases anyway.

 

[Red Door]

I wanted to say the US is not a democratic state now.

And it never has been. It's a federal republic.

 

[potatokiosk]

And it never has been. It's a federal republic.

...that's democratic in nature. Unless you think a country is only a democracy if it resembles ancient Athens, in which case the US is not a republic either because it doesn't resemble ancient Rome. But this is horribly off topic so that's all I'm going to say.