Going communist.

[The Last Conformist]

And there's goes newfangle sounding like a commies again ...

If companies could make a profit by paying their workers starvation wages, from the capitalist PoV they should do it. End of story.

 

[Mise]

Normally yes.

Wow and I thought I was just being silly

Yea, nothing says profits like a starving workforce.

It's the American way!

EDIT: If I wasn't feeling sarcastic, I'd have said something like what TLC said.

Are idiotic strawmen about corporations bread and butter for modern leftists?

Modern leftists are all middle class suburban white 16 year old poseurs with che guevara t-shirts and rage against the machine or nofx on their iPod minis and pre-ripped jeans half covering their old looking brand spanking new converse all stars they regretted buying after seeing I, Robot, which they paid $20 for a ticket to see just to get an air conditioned screen and a complementary fair trade banana. We don't eat bread and butter (unless it's bought from Pret a Manger or Starbucks).

 

[Shadylookin]

Wow, you're naive aren't you! Cute

I never argued that communism was a better ECONOMIC system, I just said that the basic premises of communism -- equity, dignity, an end to poverty -- are virtuous endeavours and are more moral than capitalism. So mentioning freely forming businesses and government intervention is quite irrelevant.

When you base morality on "voluntary exchange", you end up with sick results. You end up with poor 12 year olds prostituting themselves in order to put food on the table. You end up with wage slaves with no escape. You end up with corruption at the highest levels, with authorities taking cash for favours from wealthy businessmen. You end up with sick results, because you start from sick premises. Please, stick with economic arguements, because when you start talking morality, everything about capitalism starts to suck.

communism is slavery to the state, which I consider very immoral. As you can see the United States which is generally considered capitalists doesn't have the problems you claim we should have.

 

[DexterJ]

So far nobody has been able to debate any kind of social democracy views, except that Danish anarchist guy.
The whole communism/capitalist debate is so outdated. Communism is a 20th century failure. the only remants of which are a few red dwarf states (DPRK, Cuba) and dictatorships which legitimise their rule with a psudeo-communist ideology whilst increasingly denationalise their economies (China, Vietnam). There is only one state in the world which is likely to become communist now - which is Nepal and I cant see many people holding that up as an example of development.

Captialism is the economic system which clearly works - although I'm not claiming to follow a kind of Francis Fukyama 'End of History' ideology, which states that capitalist liberal democracy is the end of human deveopment.

However,capitalism need to be regulated effectivley to work in societies interests.

 

[Mise]

communism is slavery to the state, which I consider very immoral. As you can see the United States which is generally considered capitalists doesn't have the problems you claim we should have.

That's because most nations pass laws against immorality, to prevent such immoral situations arising. Which is a good thing. But it has little to do with capitalism. It's quite anti-capitalist, in fact, since it is active involvement by the state in private affairs.

Basically, the government has to legislate because capitalism is immoral.

 

[newfangle]

If companies could make a profit by paying their workers starvation wages, from the capitalist PoV they should do it. End of story.

Which is why no one pays they workers starvation wages. (whatever the heck that means). Third world excluded of course. They would be starving with or without the wage.

 

[HAND]

More people have have died in the name of Communism than Fascism or Democracy... In my humble opinion communism stinks...

 

[BasketCase]

Oh, but you're forgetting the excuse universally applied:

That wasn't true Communism!!! So those deaths don't count!!!!

Okay, I'm done TALKING TO THE HAND.
(Oh, c'mon, you saw that one coming from a country mile! )

Moderator Action: Warned for trolling
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Trotskij]

Communism sure aint outdated here. And in many poor countries.

 

[Sims2789]

The disadvantage is that the present society is not ready for communism. Economically, communism produces less total wealth than capitalism, but if a society does not care about the accumulation of material possesions, so what? Of course, we do not presently have a society like that, but that shouldn't stop you from wishing to and working towards humans achieveing communsim eventually.

 

[Sims2789]

...Captialism is the economic system which clearly works - although I'm not claiming to follow a kind of Francis Fukyama 'End of History' ideology, which states that capitalist liberal democracy is the end of human deveopment...

Does it truely work? Economically, yes, it produces the most wealth, but there are more important things than wealth. People stress so much over getting money that they aren't happy. As a result, although capitalism is the best economic system, it is not the system thay best satisfies human happiness. Once humanity realizes that, the begginings of communism will appear. But it will take a long, long time, and literally perfect communism may never be reached. We may be extinct before anything even resembling communism evolves.

Modern leftists are all middle class suburban white 16 year old poseurs with che guevara t-shirts and rage against the machine or nofx on their iPod minis and pre-ripped jeans half covering their old looking brand spanking new converse all stars they regretted buying after seeing I, Robot, which they paid $20 for a ticket to see just to get an air conditioned screen and a complementary fair trade banana. We don't eat bread and butter (unless it's bought from Pret a Manger or Starbucks).

I, and those that you describe, are not ready for communism either.

 

[Sims2789]

I'm a commie myself....and I get angry on "comrades" that support North Korea and want's to kill all capitalists.....hehe. Something thats ****ed up is that USA supports China but dont Cuba.....China is a way more terrible regime, but everything that the capitalits in USA can make money on is good.....****ers.

I completely agree. Keep in mind though, we ourselves are not ready for communism. Neither were the Russians, and that is why they established totalitarianism. There will be no communist revolution. Society will evolve slowly. However, revolutions can be used to advance society, but humanity will only start the final stage towards communism when there is no need to revolt and the government will not be corrupt and the people will not be materialistic. As a society, humans cannot consciously focus on achieving communism, but we can still support its inevitable occurance.

 

[Sims2789]

communism is slavery to the state, which I consider very immoral. As you can see the United States which is generally considered capitalists doesn't have the problems you claim we should have.

Unless you are currently exploring options in real estate in Vietnam, China, or North Korea your options are limited.

Communism lacks too much initive to be good econimical system.

Communism is just overcentralized totalitarian oligarchy. Even worse than capitalism.

and I bet it seems a lot more free than the soviet gulags...

Tell that to the old Muscovite woman, who, upon hearing of Stalin's death, asked "What do you say on the death of a god?".

I think anyone considering going communist should read up on the economic history of China from about 1950 to 1979...

Mise, I agree that some commies have good hearts, but some don't. There are also brutal, murderous commies.

In communism, there is no state. You all must be reffering to states that claim to be communist but aren't really, or are you all just complete idiots? I assume the former.

 

[aneeshm]

If you want to know what capitalism is , I'd recommend you read "Capitalsim : the Unknown Ideal" by Ayn Rand .

 

[CenturionV]

In communism, there is no state. You all must be reffering to states that claim to be communist but aren't really, or are you all just complete idiots? I assume the former.

that would kind of depend on whether you are talking REAL communism (I.e soviet russia, china, etc) or fantasy communism (i.e the impossible ideals on which it occasionally claims to stand) In fantasy communism there is no state, life is perfect, everyone gets all there needs filled and works for nothing for eatch others benefit. It ignores the basic of the human mind, of human need, of human ability. Its perfect, as long as it has NOTHING to do with real humans.

Its about as realistic as deciding one day you will be PERFECT and then just doing it, except its the whole country that supposedly is trying to do this.

Sad people waste there time on such crap. If only we had just kept on east and nuked everyone who got in the way in WWII, communism would probably not even be a topic of discussion these days.

 

[Sims2789]

that would kind of depend on whether you are talking REAL communism (I.e soviet russia, china, etc) or fantasy communism (i.e the impossible ideals on which it occasionally claims to stand) In fantasy communism there is no state, life is perfect, everyone gets all there needs filled and works for nothing for eatch others benefit. It ignores the basic of the human mind, of human need, of human ability. Its perfect, as long as it has NOTHING to do with real humans.

Its about as realistic as deciding one day you will be PERFECT and then just doing it, except its the whole country that supposedly is trying to do this.

Sad people waste there time on such crap. If only we had just kept on east and nuked everyone who got in the way in WWII, communism would probably not even be a topic of discussion these days.

Russia used communism to justify totalitarianism as Spain used Christianity to justify imperialism. I don't hear you saying that Christianity is evil.

 

[CenturionV]

I did'nt say communism is evil. I said its not realistic.

The truth is regardless of what REAL communism is (and I don't know who exactly has the right to declare one form of communism more real than another) the common perception of communism is the form of government russia used during the cold war.

I don't see any reason that perception should be changed simply because "thats not true communism" cuz its probably as close as anyone will ever get.

For all purposes that IS communism. And it DOES NOT work (obviously)

 

[boogaboo]

I did'nt say communism is evil. I said its not realistic.

The truth is regardless of what REAL communism is (and I don't know who exactly has the right to declare one form of communism more real than another) the common perception of communism is the form of government russia used during the cold war.

I don't see any reason that perception should be changed simply because "thats not true communism" cuz its probably as close as anyone will ever get.

For all purposes that IS communism. And it DOES NOT work (obviously)

Communism, or close to communism IS possible.
If we want (we do) to talk about communism, and not "perception of communism", than we SHOULD say bluntly that Russia wasn't even near communism.
It was a dictatorship. Period.
The "perception" you may have is one that has been granted to you by your country, not by reality.

If you want "close to communism" - I'd suggest looking at today's China.
And it DOES work. For the most part.
Democracy also DOES work. For the most part.

 

[BasketCase]

China is only Communist in name at this point. They're a plain old dictatorship (always were) and have been quietly switching to a market economy.

 

[boogaboo]

China is only Communist in name at this point. They're a plain old dictatorship (always were) and have been quietly switching to a market economy.

They still are the closest there ever was to a communist economy, although they are slowly turning their back on it.