Going communist.

[nonconformist]

Actually, all major communists were middle-class.

 

[Gif Warrior]

Am i wrong or isnt it true that Russia and China arent true communisms. Also I think people dont seperate the financial Communism from the Political. Communism isnt a government type.

 

[blindside]

Am i wrong or isnt it true that Russia and China arent true communisms. Also I think people dont seperate the financial Communism from the Political. Communism isnt a government type.

China and Russia (Soviet Union) were on the path to become true communist countries (not that it is humanly possible). The ideal of communism is to reach a state where there is no need for a government. People are totally unselfish and everybody contributes his or her part to the system. To achieve this, communists believe there needs to be a period of strong government that will forcefully brainwash people into such a mindset. Ofcourse in reality its pretty much impossible to go past this first phase.

The idea of a true communist state is great and all but it is impossible for humans to ever become that so it is not worth trying to achieve. Capitalism (with a mix of Socialism; western countries today) is the best system and has proven to be the best system.

 

[blackheart]

The idea of a true communist state is great and all but it is impossible for humans to ever become that so it is not worth trying to achieve. Capitalism (with a mix of Socialism; western countries today) is the best system and has proven to be the best system.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but capitalism isn't the best. If the current system were the best, there would be no need for it to change and adapt. It hasn't proven to be the best either.

And my advice: don't go communism. Not worth the effort of listening to lies and such of hardliner communists.

 

[luiz]

Actually, all major communists were middle-class.

Depends on the definition of middle-class, I guess.
Stalin, for exemple, had quite a humble origin. His father was a shoe-maker, IIRC, and his family lived quite poorly.

 

[Gif Warrior]

Quote:
Originally Posted by blindside
The idea of a true communist state is great and all but it is impossible for humans to ever become that so it is not worth trying to achieve. Capitalism (with a mix of Socialism; western countries today) is the best system and has proven to be the best system.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackheart
Sorry to burst your bubble, but capitalism isn't the best. If the current system were the best, there would be no need for it to change and adapt. It hasn't proven to be the best either.

He didnt say just capitalism he said mix in some socialism. I agree.

 

[Richard Cribb]

Thanks for the recommendation TLC. I have read some publications about this debate, but actually not this one.It will be high on my list of books to aquire.
To all of you, have a good night and thanks for an interesting debate!

 

[nonconformist]

Depends on the definition of middle-class, I guess.
Stalin, for exemple, had quite a humble origin. His father was a shoe-maker, IIRC, and his family lived quite poorly.

I suppose, but Marx was comfortably middle class, Engels owned a factory, Stalin did train to be a priest, Lenin was some sort of lawyer I think, Guevara was a doctor......

 

[Babbler]

I wouldn't do it, if I were you, PE. Communists are extremists, who want to shape society in their image and their image only. They cannot tolerate disent and freedom of expression, as they have the path of perfection. Any diversion for said path will only result in a lesser society.

However, the society will fail, and will fail fast, as ALL ideas become off limit to discussion. Only when distater is unaviodable will it act, and it is to late to save themselves.

 

[Ethics]

I suppose, but Marx was comfortably middle class, Engels owned a factory, Stalin did train to be a priest, Lenin was some sort of lawyer I think, Guevara was a doctor......

Khrushchev?

 

[Mise]

I'm going to put in a good word for communists. Communists genuinely believe that people are good natured, and that everyone deserves basic human dignity. Communists want to end suffering and poverty and bring a new era equality and peace, where no-one goes without. They are noble goals, and the world would be a better place if everyone shared them. As long as you believe in those goals, it doesn't matter what "-ism" you are branded.

 

[luiz]

Mise, I agree that some commies have good hearts, but some don't. There are also brutal, murderous commies.

 

[Trotskij]

I'm a commie myself....and I get angry on "comrades" that support North Korea and want's to kill all capitalists.....hehe. Something thats ****ed up is that USA supports China but dont Cuba.....China is a way more terrible regime, but everything that the capitalits in USA can make money on is good.....****ers.

 

[DexterJ]

I'm going to put in a good word for communists. Communists genuinely believe that people are good natured, and that everyone deserves basic human dignity. Communists want to end suffering and poverty and bring a new era equality and peace, where no-one goes without.

Very true and thats certainly what I believed (and hopefully still belive) back when I claimed to be Marxist-Leninist. However, the trouble with almost all communists (was also true about myself) is that they believe this goal (the end) is much more important than the way of getting to this goal (the means). A good communist will happily condemn millions of people to death (and quite rightly) because this will help bring about a uptopian society. Why should a few lives now obstruct the earthly paradise which communism will bring about?

As Kamenev, or possibly Zinoviev, said in a speech in c.1918 (Ive had a few beers so memory is not up to scratch) 'we will take 80 million russians forward to a socialist society, the other 20million, we have no need for'.' one of those two also came up with the classic quote 'the bourgoise are fit only to eat straw'

 

[Mise]

@luiz: I guess Dexter's post would be a good response to yours

 

[samildanach]

It depends on what sort of communist they are. If they want to bring about utopia immediately or if they are willing to work at it. The first lot are extremely dangerous and must be eliminated, the others are O.K.

 

[DexterJ]

the first group are not communists they are socialists. A communist is not a reformer he is a revolutionary. Socialists belive that through democracy, voting etc, they can bring about the necessary reforms to create a socialist society. This leads to social democracy (which I agree with) and would have traditionally described themsevles as Marxists. - though usually not anymore. The second believe that revolution is needed, the sooner the better. They would describe themselves as Marxist-Leninists.

 

[Desmond Hawkins]

The communists got one thing right. Atheism.

 

[Shadylookin]

I'm a commie myself....and I get angry on "comrades" that support North Korea and want's to kill all capitalists.....hehe. Something thats ****ed up is that USA supports China but dont Cuba.....China is a way more terrible regime, but everything that the capitalits in USA can make money on is good.....****ers.

Cuba stole assets from American businesses.


the advantages: you get to pretend your morally and intelectually superior to capitalists

the disadvantages: it is vastly inferior to capitalism.

 

[DexterJ]

yes but if you are going to start fingerpointing about stealing from people, the reason for american business success in cuba was possibly due to the fact that cuban people were paid very low wages in relation to the profits extracted from them. Capitalists always seem quite bothered when big business comes off worse compared to the ordinary people who work to make their profits.