Gun education for high school students?

[Kozmos]

Teach kids to handle guns,sure why not.I wish they have something like that in my school.

Lesson 1:How to do drive bys.

Stuff needed:A car,two or three friends preferably high,3-4 uzis,random pedestrians.

Available Virtual simulators:GTA San Andreas.

...

 

[blackheart]

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

 

[Rambuchan]

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

They do it quicker and easier with guns. And quicker still if they know how to use them.

 

[blackheart]

Teach kids to handle guns,sure why not.I wish they have something like that in my school.

Lesson 1:How to do drive bys.

Stuff needed:A car,two or three friends preferably high,3-4 uzis,random pedestrians.

Available Virtual simulators:GTA San Andreas.

...

Right... there's so much similiarity in gun safety courses and learning how to do drive bys!

We should stop teaching children that sticking forks in electrical outlets is bad, knives are sharp, and fire is hot as well.

EDIT: The bottom line is, why would you want people to be ignorant of things that they someday might need to know?

 

[blackheart]

They do it quicker and easier with guns. And quicker still if they know how to use them.

That's considering everyone who owns a gun is a murderer. Of course, using a gun isn't that hard to begin with, just point and click. Gun courses would teach gun SAFETY.

 

[Rambuchan]

EDIT: The bottom line is, why would you want people to be ignorant of things that they someday might need to know?

Why do they need to know? Why do they have to need to know?

 

[Rambuchan]

Gun courses would teach gun SAFETY.

And also how to use them duh! If these lessons were not there, then they probably wouldn't even touch or hold a gun in the first place!

 

[Kozmos]

Right... there's so much similiarity in gun safety courses and learning how to do drive bys!

We should stop teaching children that sticking forks in electrical outlets is bad, knives are sharp, and fire is hot as well.

EDIT: The bottom line is, why would you want people to be ignorant of things that they someday might need to know?

The lesson 1 part was a joke.I agree that gun safety courses are good.

Anyway guns dont kill people.Death kills people.Ask a doctor,its a medical fact,you cant die from a bullet.You can die from a cardiac arrest,organ failure.Small piece of metal aint the problem.

 

[IglooDame]

Anyway, two points I made which I'd like to return to because now I am getting my memories of ****ing CCF army training at school and being taught to put together, take apart, clean and fire a standard issue British army rifle:

1) "If someone wants to shoot someone, they will go for it, whether they know how to use a gun properly or not."

If was so minded, I might have bothered remembering what I had learnt at school wrt guns. But it's not valuable to me. Anyway, had I remembered what I had been taught, I would definitely be able to take someone's life with it, given the live ammo. No doubt.

However, I wouldn't have had the first clue how to do this if I had not had those lessons. Just like I don't now. (Personally, that's something I'm glad I forgot. I will never need to know that again.)

So people are failing to put together the two instances in which:

a) a kid wants to shoot someone
b) he knows how to use the gun

a) + b) = a succesfully executed gun crime.

It still hasn't been explained how teaching people to use it better (and let's face it that is what saftey means, cos you learn why it is dangerous before you can make it safe) can make gun crime less successful in achieving its aims. Anyone planning on doing that? And anyone got something on what the authorities are doing alongside all this, with regard to tighter distribution and sales?

"Using guns" is not rocket science. They're child's play next to your average VCR. "Put magazine in. Rack slide. Pull trigger." Using guns safely is something that must be taught, as safety does not come intuitively.

2) "If the US can get rid of racial segregation, why can't they take steps to remove firearms?" Like I said, racial segregation was perceived to be just as inextricable from society and culture, as many say guns are today.

I've never heard of the "gun problem" compared to racial segregation. Ordinarily the comparison is to alcohol prohibition or banning of other substances, which makes more sense as you're not really looking to ban the pointing of guns at other people (which is pretty much already covered), but ban possession of guns as a whole. But if you need to compare gun ownership to something evil that was once widespread but is now nonexistent in the US to make your point, I suppose racial segregation is as good an example as any other, but be prepared to have the counterpoint of alcohol prohibition thrown at you.

And if you want to continue pointing out that the US can be made gun-free, that's fine, but it won't happen before the students that take this course graduate from high school, so let's stick with that reality for now, okay?

 

[IglooDame]

And also how to use them duh! If these lessons were not there, then they probably wouldn't even touch or hold a gun in the first place!

I've typed five responses to this, all of them too sarcastic to post. So, I'll just say that yours is a fantastically unrealistic statement.

 

[Shadylookin]

gun safety is great. The thing is, gun safety doesn't need to be taught in school. I can't speak for Arizona, but they are cutting school budgets here and when it comes to teaching kids math or gun safety I'd prefer they taught math. To have a 9 week class on gun safety requires hiring a specially trained teacher and buying guns, ammunition, and building and setting up a firing range. That'll probably cost a good deal of money. Not to mention it shouldn't take 9 weeks to learn proper gun safety and if it does you should probably be shot.

 

[A'AbarachAmadan]

And also how to use them duh! If these lessons were not there, then they probably wouldn't even touch or hold a gun in the first place!

Maybe where you live. I lived in Arizona for three years. When I decided to teach my wife some gun safety, I asked the neighborhood guys at a barbecue if anyone had a pistol and/or rifle we could borrow. We happened to be the only ones at the barbecue who didn't own a gun. Our neighbors were in shock that we didn't own one. I'm sure this isn't typical, but I suspect gun ownership there is pretty high and that many kids have used them.

 

[Sparta]

So your ideal society would have malicious, gun touting criminals in it, which people need to defend themselves from then?

And again, you are presuming in condoning this that guns should be there to stay. That's an assumption I refuse to make having seen both sides of the coin.

Sorry for the delayed response... [I'd initially said that yes, I can imagine gun ownership in an 'ideal' society.]

I guess in my ideal society there would be no criminals at all, so people would be free to own guns for sport, hunting, and (imagined) protection, or anything else they wanted. I would also not be at work right now, and whiskey bottles would grow on trees.

There is no ideal society, there won't be one, and the black market will (for the foreseeable future) always exist (i.e. criminals will have access to guns). As such, I see it as within my rights to be able to defend against such within reason. I'm not asking for a chaingun here, just a semi-auto handgun and/or a few hunting rifles and shotguns.

I think you may underestimate slightly the ubiquity of guns here and the good that could come from some of the less-educated owners and users having better training in how to not accidentally kill someone. A plethora of opportunities already exist for someone so inclined to hone their killing ability (far more efficiently than listening to a boring old guy drone on about checking chambers and safeties I might add), including a huge genre of video games - I can't share your view that adding to the list of options safety education for responsible individuals inclined to use guns could prove to be the straw that breaks the camel's back in unleashing a torrent of crack high-school assassin teams.

You seriously think guns don't or won't still exist where they are banned/limited?

 

[CIVPhilzilla]

Reminds me of the Reno 911 episode where the cops came in to teach students how to aim acurately so they don't hit any unintended targets.

 

[blackheart]

And also how to use them duh! If these lessons were not there, then they probably wouldn't even touch or hold a gun in the first place!

That's just naive. I, for one, haven't had any formal gun training, but I've shot rifles my brother has, on a military shooting range because he is in the military. Does this nullify your statement? And does this make the assumption that I will now go commit a gun crime?

 

[Rambuchan]

Fine, I accept that you are all right. Afterall I don't live there, so I wouldn't know. I suggest you stick to your guns ('scuse the pun) and stick to those rampant crime and fatality figures and your Columbine incidents and all the rest of the gun nastiness that so many non-Americans find so hard 'to appreciate'. I don't really care what is taught in the schools over there quite frankly, that's your business. But clearly your politicans have got it all figured with regard to guns and I just hear more towing of the same old line in these posts.

I also agree that they are quite ubiquitous in American society. You will never get rid of them, of course I realise that, and I thank you all for stretching my words to conclusions and drawing such literal parallels that I would 'naturally' have taken them to. I'm clearly wrong aren't I. So why should I bother sharing with you that so many people around the world, who are not exposed to the ubiquity of guns (I have and also haven't), find it totally abhorent and unacceptable to have such liberal access to them. Wrap it up whichever way you guys want, like I say, it's your business but this incessant excusing of guns in society is one reason why I will never choose to raise a family in the USA. I just hope my ineffectual warblings gave you some impression of what a world apart a gun ridden society is for many people.

I wish you guys luck with it, and in saying that I drop all sarcasm completely.

 

[Bugfatty300]

^Canada has more guns per person than the USA.

Why don't you condem them as well? Kind of a double standard and hypocritical don't you think?

 

[Rambuchan]

^Canada has more guns per person than the USA.

Why don't you condem them as well? Kind of a double standard and hypocritical don't you think?

I'm probably mistakenly presuming that the people I am arguing with are from the USA. Didn't go and check everyone's location. In which case I apologise. But my comments apply to Canada's policy also.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

One day, I will be able to say that I trust my government. Until that day comes, its a pretty good idea to make sure people know how to use weapons.

People say things like this all the time, but they never think about what it entails exactly. If armed MPs show up at your door to take you off to Gitmo, would it help your situation much to open fire on them?

The article itself addresses that: "Students who choose to enroll in this new course learn the safe way to handle a gun and earn one credit — the equivalent to ceramics or photography electives." Sure you can oppose this class on the basis of "they should concentrate on core academics instead" but by that token you should be favoring them doing away with all the goofy electives. Additionally, there are jobs that do involve handling guns - police, segments of the military, corrections officers, and private security guards. In total probably as many future professionals there as there are needing photography skills, and certainly more than those going into ceramics-related professions. And just as your usual arts electives happen to teach creative thinking, firearms safety classes happen to teach responsibility.

Igloo, this is one issue where you and me could never agree in a million years. If the highschool was offering a course in knife fighting to students, would you think its a good way to teach them how to be responsible?

 

[Bugfatty300]

I'm probably mistakenly presuming that the people I am arguing with are from the USA. Didn't go and check everyone's location. In which case I apologise. But my comments apply to Canada's policy also.

My point is that you seem to be implying that the backwards US (and Canada) are alone when it comes to allowing people to have guns.

Many countries allow their citizens to own and use firearms. Russia for example you can buy fully-automatic M16 assault rifles off the shelf and still their murder rate is lower than America's?

In Switzerland every home has an assault rifle.

But for some reason everybody seems to think the US is the only awful place to live, besides Africa, due to everybody running around with a rifle.

I understand that Americans are principle gun-owners on this site but still, you should realize that its not America vs World opinion. Thats just silly.

Basically I'm asking you: Is Canada a terrible place to raise kids also?