General News Regarding China & Hong Kong

[Wastl]

Instead of backing military force against Nazi Germany's call for the dismemberment and annexation of Czechoslovakia, Poland worked against it and use the opportunity to vulture off some scraps from Czechoslovakia as part of their revanchist goals dating back to border wars in 1920.
As far as counterfactuals go, Munich was arguably the last -and best- chance to stop Nazi Germany. Poland not throwing Czechoslovakia under the bus and permitting Soviet troop transit to defend Czechoslovakia was how Nazi Germany could be stopped. Instead, Poland showed itself unreliable to both its attempted Central European alliance system and to France, Poland's traditional Great Power backer. Poland collaborating with Nazi Germany in the dismemberment of Czechoslovakia convinced the Soviet Union that Poland was at best a Nazi patsy and couldn't be trusted. (Hitler had spent much of the 1930s trying to get on good terms with Poland and enlist them in his crusade against Judeo-Bolshevism.)
Czechoslovakia also possessed the largest arms factory in Europe (Skoda Works) and substantial reserves of the iron, steel, and rare earths that Nazi Germany desperately needed. I'll have to break out The Wages of Destruction again, but I'm pretty sure a good proportion of the war material used in the invasion of Poland and France came from either Czechoslovak factories or their material stocks.

Yes, Poland did get involved in picking up some Czechoslovakian lands, but the rest is assigning blame to someone who had barely any responsibility, while letting those of the hook who actually could have done something about it.

At that point in time, Germany had a treaty of friendship with Poland, and had made no move against it. The Soviet Union, on the other hand, had fought a war against Poland and was very far away from acting friendly. Neither side was trustworthy, but at that point the Soviets had been the more recent threat.

Pretending that it was oh so evil of the Polish not to let the Soviets walk through their lands is just absurd. No one trusted the Soviets, and for very good reason. They weren't some benevolent power trying to protect Czechoslovakia out of the kindness of their hearts. Their interest lay in gaining control over as many puppets as they could, as evidenced by everything they did afterwards. If Soviet troops had been allowed to enter Poland, there is no way Poland could have defended itself against any Soviet attempts to get involved in internal Polish politics. The Soviet declaration to "defend Czechoslovakia" is as meaningful as Germany "protecting Danish and Norwegian neutrality" by invading. You are basically saying that Poland should have taken the risk of throwing itself under the bus to maybe protect someone who Britain and France didn't want to protect either.

Poland had very little influence on the outcome of the Sudetencrisis. You want to blame someone, blame
a) Hitler, for pushing the whole thing
b) the Entente for being giant hypocrits who didn't want to let German speaking people have the right to self-determination after WW1, that the Entente claimed was oh so important to them
c) France, for chickening out of the Alliance with Czecoslovakia due to not wanting to fight a war just because Germany wanted to have land mostly settled by Germans
d) the British military for being ill-informed about the strength of the German military and telling Chamberlain that they wouldn't be able to send any noteworthy amount of troops to the continent, which, alongside the distaste of the public for another war, caused him to go for all out appeasement
e) and following up on that, the refusal of Britain and France to stand up to Germany even though German military commanders virtually begged them to do so, as they would have attempted a coup if Hitler had declared war, so long as Britain and France just kept up the pressure in Germany

Then, and only then, can you even think about including Poland on that list. And even then, expecting them to let a foreign army of a questionable if not outright hostile regime "move through their lands" is a very odd stance to take. No one lets armies of a non-allied nation move through their territory. And you sure as heck don't let a hostile regime do that, regardless of how good it claims its intentions are.

It is the height of ignorance to claim that Poland's decision somehow forced the Allies into appeasement. It did no such thing.

 

[El_Machinae]

[
Hmm... What? I am trying to understand what you mean here or how it relates to what we were talking about

You were talking about the Polish psyche. I was wondering if that translated into the Polish-Canadian psyche. Like, do you view the US as a future predator that will attack you eventually, or is it an assumed ally? And then I noticed that a large portion of Canadian rightwingers would prefer to turn over control of their region to US authority, if they could.

 

[Farm Boy]

How much of that is that they're more similar to their neighbors than their government? The high great plains states seem to get along with their northern neighbors more easily than their regulators farther away. Though your use of rightwinger as a term might mean the statement is mostly about others and less about the interesting bits. Personally, of course.

 

[aelf]

...while letting those of the hook who actually could have done something about it.

Invalidates the rest of the post.

 

[warpus]

You were talking about the Polish psyche. I was wondering if that translated into the Polish-Canadian psyche. Like, do you view the US as a future predator that will attack you eventually, or is it an assumed ally? And then I noticed that a large portion of Canadian rightwingers would prefer to turn over control of their region to US authority, if they could.

I've noticed that there is a phenomenon that's not only limited to Polonia (Polish diaspora) but to possibly any diaspora (or at least other diasporas). Those who leave their home country who were a bit conservative to begin with, end up being more conservative and more right-wing compared to those who stay behind.

Somebody pointed this out a while ago wrt the Turkish diaspora in Germany. There was a discussion surrounding the question of.. Why are so many Turks who migrate to a progressive country more conservative than those Turks they left behind in their home country? Generally speaking of course, as it likely does not affect everyone.

So.. there is a bit of that going on.. but Poland is also very split in terms of a left vs right split right now. On one hand you have the older and/or rural population, which views the Catholic church as an integral part of Polish culture for instance.. and has somewhat socially conservative views about things like abortion.. and on the other hand you have the younger and usually more urban sort of progressive part of Poland which clashes with those on the right. i.e. there are less people who find themselves in the middle and more and more people who relate to one of two extremes.

It seems that over the last 10-15 years people have been pushed more to the left or more to the right. As such it seems to me that many members of Polonia now view "Liberals" as the enemy that needs to be dealt with.. I see a lot of this with the older crowd especially, but it translates to those in their 20s and 30s as well. It's the people who are more likely to not trust "mainstream news". It's the same people who in the U.S. are more likely to only get their news from Fox News or what have you.

The same thing is happening with Canadians who aren't of Polish descent. There is a not so insignificant number of people who now do not trust "mainstream media" and turn to stuff like Rebel News, "On guard for thee" and other extremist right-wight "news" sources. They stand against Liberals (or progressivism or what have you) first and foremost, and even if some of these people will not say that they outright support somebody like Trump - they will be sympathetic to the cause in some capacity.

There is a definite split in Polonia (Polish diaspora) along these left vs right lines, which mirrors what is happening in Poland. So I don't think it's really possible to talk about the Polish psyche as a whole here, when it pertains to some of these topics.

The U.S. is still viewed in a fairly positive light, IMO, no matter where you land on this spectrum.. The focus has sort of shifted from viewing an entire country as the baddies.. or the goodies.. to instead focusing on these left vs right dynamics. So if you talk to a random member of Polonia who is over 60.. They will probably tell you that the Democrats are the baddies and the Republicans and/or Trump are the good guys.

Some of this has been fuelled by state-sanctioned media in Poland, which is right-wing, and which many of these people religiously follow, since it tells them more or less what they want to hear. It's basically the same thing as Murdoch's media control of the news in Australia or FOX News in the U.S., although in the case of Poland the government has an even tighter control of this media (from what I've read).

I hope this answered your question. These developments have been very troubling, as it has split families in two.. not to mention the whole country and the whole of Polonia.. People are being radicalized and brainwashed, essentially, IMO.

 

[El_Machinae]

That definitely answered my question!

 

[Zardnaar]

I've noticed that there is a phenomenon that's not only limited to Polonia (Polish diaspora) but to possibly any diaspora (or at least other diasporas). Those who leave their home country who were a bit conservative to begin with, end up being more conservative and more right-wing compared to those who stay behind.

Somebody pointed this out a while ago wrt the Turkish diaspora in Germany. There was a discussion surrounding the question of.. Why are so many Turks who migrate to a progressive country more conservative than those Turks they left behind in their home country? Generally speaking of course, as it likely does not affect everyone.

So.. there is a bit of that going on.. but Poland is also very split in terms of a left vs right split right now. On one hand you have the older and/or rural population, which views the Catholic church as an integral part of Polish culture for instance.. and has somewhat socially conservative views about things like abortion.. and on the other hand you have the younger and usually more urban sort of progressive part of Poland which clashes with those on the right. i.e. there are less people who find themselves in the middle and more and more people who relate to one of two extremes.

It seems that over the last 10-15 years people have been pushed more to the left or more to the right. As such it seems to me that many members of Polonia now view "Liberals" as the enemy that needs to be dealt with.. I see a lot of this with the older crowd especially, but it translates to those in their 20s and 30s as well. It's the people who are more likely to not trust "mainstream news". It's the same people who in the U.S. are more likely to only get their news from Fox News or what have you.

The same thing is happening with Canadians who aren't of Polish descent. There is a not so insignificant number of people who now do not trust "mainstream media" and turn to stuff like Rebel News, "On guard for thee" and other extremist right-wight "news" sources. They stand against Liberals (or progressivism or what have you) first and foremost, and even if some of these people will not say that they outright support somebody like Trump - they will be sympathetic to the cause in some capacity.

There is a definite split in Polonia (Polish diaspora) along these left vs right lines, which mirrors what is happening in Poland. So I don't think it's really possible to talk about the Polish psyche as a whole here, when it pertains to some of these topics.

The U.S. is still viewed in a fairly positive light, IMO, no matter where you land on this spectrum.. The focus has sort of shifted from viewing an entire country as the baddies.. or the goodies.. to instead focusing on these left vs right dynamics. So if you talk to a random member of Polonia who is over 60.. They will probably tell you that the Democrats are the baddies and the Republicans and/or Trump are the good guys.

Some of this has been fuelled by state-sanctioned media in Poland, which is right-wing, and which many of these people religiously follow, since it tells them more or less what they want to hear. It's basically the same thing as Murdoch's media control of the news in Australia or FOX News in the U.S., although in the case of Poland the government has an even tighter control of this media (from what I've read).

I hope this answered your question. These developments have been very troubling, as it has split families in two.. not to mention the whole country and the whole of Polonia.. People are being radicalized and brainwashed, essentially, IMO.

I've read that with Poland and alit of eastern Europe the younger liberal types are more likely to emigrate.

Which leaves behind more conservatives.

 

[warpus]

Yeah, Poland joining the EU opened up a lot of opportunities for younger Poles, as they were more likely to be in a position where they can seek employment elsewhere. My cousin for instance now lives in Germany and is married to a German guy. Her brother was living in the UK for a while, trying to make some extra money there.

I have no idea about the numbers though, and I have also read that many Poles have been returning recently due to an upswing in the local Polish economy and so on. It's tough to say whether those who have left have really affected the local culture much, as those who live abroad can vote in local elections as well.

 

[Samson]

‘No room for debate’: Hong Kong outlines security law for schools

Hong Kong children as young as six years old will be taught the “great importance” of the territory’s national security law and what constitutes foreign interference and subversion under new education guidelines for the city.
The Education Bureau’s guidelines, released late on Thursday night, suggest Beijing’s plans for the semi-autonomous territory go beyond quashing dissent and aim to overhaul society and bring its most spirited city more in line with the Communist Party-controlled mainland.
“National security is of great importance. Teachers should not treat it as if it is a controversial issue for discussion as usual,” the guidelines said.
Teachers should “clearly point out that safeguarding national security is the responsibility of all nationals and that as far as national security is concerned, there is no room for debate or compromise”.
The guidelines include examples of “political propaganda” in schools – from wearing a badge with a political message to shouting slogans or “expressing certain political views demands” and offer teachers a range of suggested responses.
“In case of a grave/emergency situation, the school should report to the police immediately,” the guidelines said. Teachers and principals are also required to inspect noticeboards and remove library books that are considered a danger to national security.
Education Secretary Kevin Yeung said schools that failed to act on breaches of legislation could be held liable under the new guidelines, RTHK reported on Friday.
Children in primary schools will learn how to sing and “respectfully listen” to the national anthem, learn about the police and the People’s Liberation Army as “protectors” of Hong Kong, as well as about the four main security law offences, including terrorism and secessionism.
​

 

[Gorbles]

So, "political propaganda" is bad. Here, have some indoctrination by the way of political propaganda!

 

[innonimatu]

I don't know if you remember, but in the 20s Poland was a dictatorship attempting to reassert itself as a country after almost 200 years of not existing at all, surrounded by enemies on all sides, with no clear allies nearby, and unstable country, unstable Europe, and another big war seemingly on the horizon. In those times (and even in peaceful times) the enemies of your enemies are usually exploited as potential temporary allies. Even Finland cozied up to the Nazis, because they saw their #1 enemy (at the time) as the Soviets. Even the U.S. (freedom #1!) are allied with the Saudi Arabian regime. Right now! Geopolitics are complicated, don't try to make them so black and white and so simple, just so you can try to smear an entire country in an effort to win an argument about something unrelated. Surely we are beyond that as well

You expect absolute perfection from Poland during these times, and when they clearly aren't - use that as justification to "win" a completely unrelated argument. Are we trying to have a discussion here or use tricks to win an argument for internet points?

There are fair arguments about how things should have been done better for many of those events. And why they weren't, and realistically couldn't. I argued it started back in the early 20s, the accidents of an obscure border/independence war then on the ruins of the former Russian Empire, and was pretty much locked afterwards into territorial troubles continuing to be troubles.
If there is anything to learn from those tragedies is that having options locked in the present because of past events is bad and people should do the effort of disconnecting the two, avoiding black&white narratives.

Honk Kong too is under its past shadow, even having it present through the handover agreements. But it's very clear that it can't go its own way separate from China: it has always completely depended on China.

 

[Takhisis]

‘No room for debate’: Hong Kong outlines security law for schools

Adding the official circular to educational authorities as quoted in the Grauniad:

“for the sake of Hong Kong’s continuous development and long-term prosperity, the national security law has been enacted”
“The fundamentals of national security education are to develop in students a sense of belonging to the country, an affection for the Chinese people, a sense of national identity, as well as an awareness of and a sense of responsibility for safeguarding national security,” “It should enable students to become good citizens who have a sense of national identity, show respect for the rule of law and abide by the law.”​

1) Obey us or suffer economic ruination
2) fully autocratic: the legitimisation of power resides solely with one being in power
3) thought/emotion control: you must love us and feel you owe us a duty

Am I the only one who sees the horrifying analogies between this and your typical wife-beating macho man?

 

[aelf]

Authoritarians love such language. There are plenty of them in this part of the world.

 

[Ferocitus]

Hong Kong Government: Devolved executive-led system within a socialist republic.
Hong Kong (est. pop. 2019) 7,500,700.

Under the form of government in China, legit votes on national issues must include those of the CCP.
CCP Membership 91,914,000.

Under FPP rules, CCP wins. No further voting needed.

 

[Samson]

China strengthens its hold on the media

Months-long review comes as the government replaces the broadcaster’s director six months before his term expires.

“There are deficiencies in (the) editorial management mechanism,” said the 154-page review released on Friday.
There were “no well-defined and properly documented editorial processes and decisions,” and no “clear allocation of roles and responsibilities among editorial staff,” it said. “Weak editorial accountability is observed.”

The government appointed Patrick Li, the former deputy secretary for Home Affairs, as director of broadcasting. He has no broadcasting experience.
​

Further evidence of rape and torture in Xinjiang

Speaking to CNN from the US, Ziyawudun said that she was taken to a cell with about 20 other women, where they were given little food and water and only allowed to use the toilet once a day for three to five minutes. "Those who took more time were electrocuted with shock batons," she said.

During one of these sessions, she claims police officers kicked and beat her until she passed out. Another time, while still bruised from her beating, Ziyawudun claimed two female guards took her to another room where they laid her on a table. "They inserted a stun baton inside me and twisted and shocked me with it. I blacked out," she said.
Ten days later, she says a group of male guards took her away from her cell. "In the next room I heard another girl crying and screaming. I saw about 5 or 6 men going into that room. I thought they were torturing her. But then I was gang raped. After that I realized what they also did to her," Ziyawudun said, through tears. She said it happened multiple times while she was detained in the camps.
"They were extremely sadistic, causing pain and damage to the body by beating and smacking my head on the wall ... it was their way of punishing us."
​

 

[Verbose]

Deutsche Welle's English language broadcasts have a recent special on Taiwan:

 

[El_Machinae]

Deutsche Welle's English language broadcasts have a recent special on Taiwan:

Are they are reputable organization?

 

[Verbose]

Are they are reputable organization?

Sie sind deutsch...

 

[Takhisis]

More of the democracy inaction…

Close loopholes so only 'patriots' can run Hong Kong – Chinese official
Speculation grows China seeking to block opposition candidates and overhaul judiciary

A top Chinese official has outlined plans to ensure only “patriots” run Hong Kong, as Beijing seeks to neuter any remaining democratic opposition and take a more direct role in how the business hub is run.

Spoiler :

The landmark speech by Xia Baolong, the head of the Hong Kong and Macau Affairs Office, came two weeks before the annual meeting of China’s rubber-stamp legislature and as speculation grew that further measures were being planned to sew up control of the city.

“The most vital and pressing task to enforce rule by patriots is to improve the relevant systems, particularly the relevant electoral system,” Xia said, according to a speech published by his office. “Being patriotic means loving the People’s Republic of China.”

Hong Kong has never been a democracy – something that has fuelled protests and resentment towards Beijing. However, until recently, the city had a veneer of choice that allowed a small and vocal opposition to flourish at certain local elections.

After huge and often violent democracy protests swept the city in 2019 – and opposition politicians won a landslide victory in district council elections – Beijing responded with a major crackdown.

Last year’s meeting of China’s National People’s Congress imposed a sweeping national security law that outlawed much dissent in Hong Kong and radically transformed its relationship with the authoritarian mainland.

Hongkongers are therefore looking closely at what the next meeting might bring.

Xia’s comments suggest Beijing is seeking to ensure no opposition candidates are able to stand in the city’s limited elections and echoing weeks of calls in China’s state media for such a purge.

Authorities, he said, must “close loopholes” that allow “anti-China troublemakers” into politics. “Improving the relevant electoral system must be led by the central government.”

Xia also laid out the criteria for what makes a “real patriot”, including love for the People’s Republic of China, its constitution and the Communist party.

He added that the judiciary must also be patriots – potentially an ominous warning for those who fear Beijing is planning to overhaul Hong Kong’s independent courts, one of the pillars of its success as a business hub.

Before its 1997 handover by Britain, China agreed to let Hong Kong keep certain liberties and autonomy for 50 years under a model known as “one country, two systems”.

Western governments and critics accuse Beijing of shredding that commitment in recent years. Beijing counters that it is restoring stability.

What form electoral reform might take remains to be seen.

Beijing could further strengthen its control of the city’s half-elected legislature to maintain an even more solid majority for its supporters in a chamber already devoid of any opposition after the courts disqualified some opposition figures because of their political views.

It could also go after district council elections – the only time Hongkongers get to vote for every seat.

Andrew Leung, the pro-Beijing president of Hong Kong’s legislature, told reporters on Monday that Xia was “outlining the red lines for people holding high offices in Hong Kong”.

Hong Kong’s chief executive, Carrie Lam, welcomed Xia’s speech and rejected concerns that dissenting voices were being oppressed.

“If we must use the word oppress, it’s oppressing those who advocate Hong Kong independence, who attempted to push Hong Kong into the abyss of violence and those who forget their ancestry, do not recognise themselves as Chinese, who collude with foreign political organisations to destroy Hong Kong,” she said.

btw this is the head of the Hong Kong and Macao office, so I wonder how the poor Macaoans are doing…

 

[plarq]

More of the democracy inaction…

​

btw this is the head of the Hong Kong and Macao office, so I wonder how the poor Macaoans are doing…

Macaoans Macanese are doing relatively well comparing to HKers in the recent two decades. It is basically a Las Vegas with Beijing's approval to suck Chinese tourists' money. Beijing is trying to setup a model colony in Macau and coo HK establishment elites into fully cave in to Beijing's administration.