How to get a job (or not)

[ls612]

To weigh in on the salary figure question... Isn't it, psychologically speaking, advantageous to put the first number out? And shouldn't you have a solid idea of what salary you want? So giving desired salary+5-10% seems reasonable to me...

Anecdote time:
After I graduated a year and a half ago I was pretty careless and got flown out for an interview with a company did basically no research on. It was far away and I didn't really want to live there so I just went for the experience.
So anyway at the end they asked me what I was expecting salary wise, I did my best to refuse but they said they at least needed some idea of my minimum. So I said that I wouldn't consider anything less than 50k. The HR lady kind of laughed and said "we pay more than that."
About a month later I got a call and they offered me the job with a 68k starting salary I accepted... Then about 10 minutes later she called back and said she had mixed my offer up with somebody else's and the offer was actually for 73k and hopefully I would be okay with that one instead?
I still work there, but I guess negotiating doesn't always matter?

Out of curiosity what field was this in?

 

[nc-1701]

Out of curiosity what field was this in?

Technical Services for a large Healthcare IT shop.

My degree was in math and I had zero experience.

 

[Birdjaguar]

What a great story. Sometimes the negotiating is effortless.

 

[nc-1701]

What a great story. Sometimes the negotiating is effortless.

It's a good story, probably a poor life lesson.


On Topic:
How much do references matter? I've been kicking around job hopping in the future and I feel like I'm in a spot where it would be very hard to provide a good sheet of references. The way my job works I'm relatively solitary and aside from my direct boss nobody can really speak to my work and asking him for a reference seems...awkward at best. I do have clients that I work with very closely and some might give me a reference, but that also seems a little dangerous. I got my current job using professors as references, but I haven't kept up communication well so some of them I haven't spoken to in 2 or more years.

Do references really matter? Should I not sweat it?

 

[Birdjaguar]

I am asked to provide references regularly and when i hire I call them regularly. I would say that in general, they can hurt you badly if they are negative or weak. I try not to give them for people unless I have high praise for them.

Most big companies don't provide anything other than hire date, exit date, maybe pay and whether or not you are rehire-able.

Generally references fall into two groups: professional and personal. Companies will ask for one or the other and in most cases they want professional. Your supervisors are best.

I never call references until after I've had an interview. That way I can use what I learn in the interview to guide my questions with the reference.

When and applicant includes a generic, pre written reference along with their resume, I generally ignore it. I want a name, phone number, email and relationship information for three people when I ask for references. If the candidate gets far enough, I want to call the reference.

If you cannot use your current supervisor as a reference because you are trying to leave that company, then seek out other professionals in your industry who know you and your work. Ask them in advance if they will be a reference and tell them the companies who give you an interview. You don't want them to be surprised. You should also tell them the kind of job you are trying to get so they can target their response to the job you want. A good reference knows enough about you to talk about your skills, your work habits, your achievements and personality. They have to be able to talk about you in a convincing manner.

 

[Zelig]

I haven't been asked for references at my last few jobs/offers. I've been at my current gig long enough (and don't even have a supervisor) that if anyone asks now, I'll probably just provide some huckster friends of mine who are basically straight out of House of Lies.

If I'm calling references, it's for my first choice to hire, and just to confirm that their story is accurate. Pre-written references I also ignore.

 

[aelf]

I feel embarrassed to ask people to give me references. Why should they care? It's me trying to get a job, not them. It's practically asking them to do me a favour that I probably won't be able to return.

I feel like it's a very old-fashioned practice. If you can't suss out what you need to know about me during the interview, then maybe you're not doing a good job of it at all. It's not like whoever I do ask is going to tell you anything but good things about me.

Fortunately, I've only had to do this once or twice.

 

[Cheetah]

I feel embarrassed to ask people to give me references. Why should they care? It's me trying to get a job, not them. It's practically asking them to do me a favour that I probably won't be able to return.

I feel like it's a very old-fashioned practice. If you can't suss out what you need to know about me during the interview, then maybe you're not doing a good job of it at all. It's not like whoever I do ask is going to tell you anything but good things about me.

Fortunately, I've only had to do this once or twice.

"Probably", but one never knows.

Also, to some extent it is flattering: You're actually saying that you value and trust the person enough to not screw up your job prospects, and maybe even help them. And people like being flattered.

Not that anyone has ever asked me to be a reference yet. Which could probably mean that I'm not very valued or trusted - or that it just hasn't happened yet.

 

[Flying Pig]

I feel embarrassed to ask people to give me references. Why should they care? It's me trying to get a job, not them. It's practically asking them to do me a favour that I probably won't be able to return.

I feel like it's a very old-fashioned practice. If you can't suss out what you need to know about me during the interview, then maybe you're not doing a good job of it at all. It's not like whoever I do ask is going to tell you anything but good things about me.

Fortunately, I've only had to do this once or twice.

It's partly a matter of who you end up asking: if you find two people who can say good things about you, but neither of them have ever been in charge of you at work, somebody will start wondering how that might have come about. After all, there are plenty of people who are very charming and good at talking about themselves but actually not a lot of use when needed to perform, or work in a team.

 

[aelf]

Also, to some extent it is flattering: You're actually saying that you value and trust the person enough to not screw up your job prospects, and maybe even help them. And people like being flattered.

Hmm... perhaps.

It's partly a matter of who you end up asking: if you find two people who can say good things about you, but neither of them have ever been in charge of you at work, somebody will start wondering how that might have come about. After all, there are plenty of people who are very charming and good at talking about themselves but actually not a lot of use when needed to perform, or work in a team.

Asking your boss for a reference might, as mentioned above, be awkward. I can pick and choose colleagues or more senior colleagues who would say good things about me. They've worked with me. I don't think it's reasonable to expect me to get a reference from my current boss, and the chances of former bosses responding to your request seem to be pretty slim from experience.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

All but one of my current crop of interviews came from people referring me. So there's that.

 

[Birdjaguar]

References are a good reason to maintain a small network of associates who know you and who will support your job hunting efforts.

 

[BvBPL]

Why should they care?

Providing references is just part of being a manager. It is part of the job. If I am not providing past employees with references then I am not doing my job as a manager.

If someone complains that they don't like giving references then I would question their general capabilities as a manger. When I've called to check on references and someone demurs or complains about providing references as a general rule then I think that reflects more upon the reference than the applicant (although it doesn't help the applicant).

 

[Zelig]

I wouldn't say references for professionals are the job of managers - my manager's job is to keep office supplies stocked and to triage requests from other departments.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Perhaps you define "manager" differently. BvBPL is correct. As a manager, part of your job is to improve the skill sets of those you manage. When those good people move on from your supervision, you should be eager to continue to support them as they pursue their career.

 

[Zelig]

Managers aren't there to manage professionals, they're there to manage the work environment for professionals.

The Management Team

Stop thinking of the management team at the top of the organization. Start thinking of the software developers, the designers, the product managers, and the front line sales people as the top of the organization.

The “management team” isn’t the “decision making” team. It’s a support function. You may want to call them administration instead of management, which will keep them from getting too big for their britches.

Administrators aren’t supposed to make the hard decisions. They don’t know enough. All those super genius computer scientists that you had to recruit from MIT at great expense are supposed to make the hard decisions. That’s why you’re paying them. Administrators exist to move the furniture around so that the people at the top of the tree can make the hard decisions.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Clearly we have very different definitions of managers and what they do. The roles in a tech business may be different than those in a non tech companies. BvBPL and I are talking about the folks who do make the hard decisions; who do supervise productive staff; and who guide the company towards its goals. They are the people who make sure they have a great team of people who are inspired and productive.

 

[BvBPL]

That's a very theory y tact. Facilitating professional growth, such as by providing references, serves those ends.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Timely xpost!!!

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Clearly we have very different definitions of managers and what they do. The roles in a tech business may be different than those in a non tech companies. BvBPL and I are talking about the folks who do make the hard decisions; who do supervise productive staff; and who guide the company towards its goals. They are the people who make sure they have a great team of people who are inspired and productive.

I don't really feel that what you define to be a manager is all that different from what they actually are in the tech world.

Zelig's using a non-standard definition of what managers are/do.