Is not wanting to date trans individuals transphobic?

[Akka]

Problem is, telling people that they are evil if they won't date someone who is trans (and backing it with a theory that transwomen are physically like women) won't work, anymore than a gay men telling a straight dude that he's evil for not wanting to date men (and backing it with some theory that all people are somewhat bi or whatever one pulls as a justification).

That's a pretty good parallel.

Let's go with: Down to Fornicate

It's not fornicate, but, you know.

Yeah, I more or less guessed it.
But what exactly does the expression means ?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Yeah, I more or less guessed it.
But what exactly does the expression means ?

It means you made a good choice in who you asked out. Especially if it was a really cheap date.

 

[warpus]

I've been on 4 dates in the past 5 years. Probably 5 dates in 10 years. And two of those dates were with the same people. So when I'm going out on a date I am going with a very specific woman, with very specific traits.

Looking at my past dating history, I only have a handful of dates left.. This means that certain groups of people are "just right out". I don't have the luxury of shopping around, I only have a handful of dates left and that is it

If I was a serial dater and went on a date every other night, I would definitely casually go on a date with a trans person, just to have that experience. Farmers, Mormons, I would date even Scientologists. But my lifestyle is quite different from that, so I'm not going to lie to myself and start saying "Yeah I'd totally do that" just so that some people don't get upset, all while I know that it'll never happen. I know myself and I know what sort of people I'd date, given my circumstances and tendencies, so I'm going to be honest about that.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I've been on 4 dates in the past 5 years. Probably 5 dates in 10 years. And two of those dates were with the same people. So when I'm going out on a date I am going with a very specific woman, with very specific traits.

Looking at my past dating history, I only have a handful of dates left.. This means that certain groups of people are "just right out". I don't have the luxury of shopping around, I only have a handful of dates left and that is it

If I was a serial dater and went on a date every other night, I would definitely casually go on a date with a trans person, just to have that experience. Farmers, Mormons, I would date even Scientologists. But my lifestyle is quite different from that, so I'm not going to lie to myself and start saying "Yeah I'd totally do that" just so that some people don't get upset, all while I know that it'll never happen. I know myself and I know what sort of people I'd date, given my circumstances and tendencies, so I'm going to be honest about that.

Has it occurred to you that you might be a dateophobe?

 

[Farm Boy]

It means you made a good choice in who you asked out. Especially if it was a really cheap date.

It's even better if she pays for you.

 

[warpus]

Has it occurred to you that you might be a dateophobe?

I was just never a big fan of official social functions with unspoken rules, expected etiquette, etc. It all seemed so unnecessary to me and I did not understand it. Plus when I was growing up I used to have a lot of anxiety in social situations to begin with.. so while I grew up I did not develop many activity-related social skills, and so joined the dating scene as a late recruit.

So I mean, I'm still not a huge fan of dating, obviously. I prefer far more casual romantic interludes, even though the opposite sex is generally against that sort of thing. I have been on some very fun dates, but in the end it all feels like a game, and romantic relationships are a hassle anyway, which if you're not careful dating can easily lead to

If girls were in the habit of asking me out, I would probably be going on a lot more dates. Since they're not asking, I don't really care, and only end up dating when the planets align.

 

[Narz]

If people are unwilling to back up their assertions, then they really vacate the right to complain when other people point out they're wrong.

People need to justify their sexual prefences?

As for why I am so invested into this topic, it's because, again, this is my personhood that is being violated.

Women may not want to bang me for many reasons, some of them I may judge as shallow, superficial and unfair. Nonetheless, my personhood is not violated by someone refusing to give herself a chance at being attracted to me. Dating profiles are rife with women won't date whites, blacks, men under 6 feet tall or men without cars. Sexual selection is harsh. But would you really want to twist someone's arm who has a clear boundary (however biased or misguided you might feel it is)?

 

[cardgame]

Nobody wants to twist their arm, merely to own their bigotry.

 

[Narz]

I still don't see how having sexual preferneces = bigot. Sounds like the logic that lesbians hate men cuz they don't like dick.

 

[bernie14]

Nobody wants to twist their arm, merely to own their bigotry.

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.....

Spoiler :

unless you throw like a girl

Spoiler :

JOKE!!!!

 

[civver_764]

Trigger warning: If you are a person who thinks that certain opinions are "hate speech" and thus unwelcome in discussions about transgenderism, this post will certainly offend you. I have provided a cute video for those people to watch instead.

Spoiler :

I think this whole movement for normalizing transgenderism is totally nuts. These people need mental help, not encouragement to chop their genitals off. And no, I'm not going to pretend you are a woman when you are clearly a man. Sorry dude, you can live your life however you want and mutilate yourself to your heart's content. But to expect other people to play your game of pretend with you? That's crazy.

If I cut my arm my off, people would rightfully call me crazy. If I said "oh I don't think arm is really mine" people would rightfully call me crazy. There are people like this. Should doctors cut their arms off?

Sorry that this offends you, but it's the truth. No it's not fair. Life is not fair when you have a mental disorder. I'm incredibly sorry for your situation, but the solution is not to normalize it and force everyone else to join in your delusions. People say "own your bigotry", but what about owning your delusions? Instead you want to make it everybody's delusion.

And the only reason you would consider this "hate speech"(which I am sure you will) is because you know I'm right and you don't want to admit it. Nothing about what I'm saying is hateful. I don't hate you one bit. I DO NOT HATE YOU. I hate that our society has encouraged you to pump yourself with hormones and literally chop your penis off. That's wrong. And they're pushing this stuff on kids too. They're teaching kids that they can be whatever gender they want. There are parents who think its cool to have a transgender kid. That makes me sick to my stomach. Our society is sick. I hope you get the help you need, I really do, but I'm not going to pretend you're something you're not just to spare your feelings.

Imagine if we told schizophrenic people that the voices in their head were real? How is this any different? Honestly, how is this any different? Can you tell me the difference?

I get wanting to feel normal. I really do. It must really suck to think you are the opposite gender. No, I don't have any idea what you're going through. No, I don't really know "what it's like". Yes, I am all those nasty words you want to call me. If that's what makes you feel better, then go for it. I'm sure I seem like a profoundly evil person to you compared to all these "tolerant" enablers.

Moderator Action: You are not being infracted for your opinion here. You are being infracted because you have consciously gone out of your way to target and insult several members on CFC and an entire demographic en masse with no semblance of good faith or intention for reasonable discussion. Why you felt the need to post this is beyond me. It is certainly unwelcome on CFC. Three point infraction. - Vincour
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Evie]

I've seen (and I mean that literally - actually seen with my own eyes) people with gender identity issues who were treated as you propose - as mentally disturbed people in need of having their brain, not their body, fixed. Their problems got progressively worse, and the treatment likewise progressively worse, causing even more damage and creating even worse trouble, until they ended up institutionalized for the last several decades of their life.

With all due respect, chop chop and hormones as you'd like to phrase it sounds like a better alternative.

 

[cardgame]

I still don't see how having sexual preferneces = bigot. Sounds like the logic that lesbians hate men cuz they don't like dick.

Take Omega's post where you really like this girl, you get along great, she's hot, etc., etc., and then she tells you she's trans. Now you're no longer attracted to her? Nothing has changed. It's all in your mind. This is transphobic. Of course you don't have to date them. But people who can at least acknowledge their bigotry might also take another look and think, "why" - perhaps doing some introspection. and changing their own minds. Not having their minds changed for them. Not coerced. Not armtwisted.

This is somewhat analogous to the religious right family who hates gays, then has a son who comes out as gay, and now they're okay with it. Because they know the person and are no longer reliant on prejudicial thinking.

 

[Jabarto]

People keep treating these kinds of preferences as something that just sprang fully-formed from the ether and that can be divorced from their holders' culture and upbringing. And again I'm saying this is not the case.

 

[civver_764]

I've seen (and I mean that literally - actually seen with my own eyes) people with gender identity issues who were treated as you propose - as mentally disturbed people in need of having their brain, not their body, fixed. Their problems got progressively worse, and the treatment likewise progressively worse, causing even more damage and creating even worse trouble, until they ended up institutionalized for the last several decades of their life.

With all due respect, chop chop and hormones as you'd like to phrase it sounds like a better alternative.

What do you make of studies like this that show the suicide rate is higher for trans people after transitioning?

 

[cardgame]

How many times have we debunked that Swedish study on this forum?

It doesn't separate pre op from post op, you literally can't say that the suicide rate is higher.

 

[Evie]

The study summary says that the suicide rate is higher for post transition people than for the general population (in addition to any more in-depth criticism cardgame may have).

Not than transgendered people who did not transition, which would be an actual useful metric for me.

EDIT: having now seen an interview with the author of the study in which she explicitly and repeatedly state that the interview should not be read as questioning the efficiency of gender reasignment in addressing gender dysphoria... (here: http://transadvocate.com/fact-check-study-shows-transition-makes-trans-people-suicidal_n_15483.htm ), I can firmly say: the study does not make your case. At all.

 

[civver_764]

The study summary says that the suicide rate is higher for post transition people than for the general population (in addition to any more in-depth criticism cardgame may have)

Not than transgendered people who did not transition, which would be an actual useful metric for me.

Are you planning to undergo SRS? What if you regret it? Do you think it's possible for trans people to "remit"? If so would you want to be one of those people?

 

[Evie]

I remain undecided on SRS ; hormone is the priority for now. After that I'll worry about the next step.

Is remiting possible? I don't know. Knowledge of that area is scarce, so I suppose it's possible. I wouldn't want to. But here's the thing: even if it's possible, it's not likely. I'm far, far, far more likely to spend the remainder of my life in the wrong body if don't transition than if I do. And that's more than enough to settle the debate and ignore your proposed "treatment".

Believe me when I say, every trans person I know has gone over those questions (or similar ones) again and again and again. "What if I turn out to be wrong? What if? What if?".

If those considerations offered me enough hope of things getting better to not need transition, I'd take them. They don't.

 

[civver_764]

I remain undecided on SRS ; hormone is the priority for now. After that I'll worry about the next step.

Is remiting possible? I don't know. Knowledge of that area is scarce, so I suppose it's possible. I wouldn't want to. But here's the thing: even if it's possible, it's not likely. I'm far, far, far more likely to spend the remainder of my life in the wrong body if don't transition than if I do. And that's more than enough to settle the debate and ignore your proposed "treatment".

And you are certainly free to do so. Not to keep throwing studies at you, but this study seems to suggest to me that even undergoing hormone therapy will raise the chance of suicide.

Prevalence of suicide attempts is elevated among those who disclose to everyone that they are transgender or gender-non-conforming (50%) and among those that report others can tell always (42%) or most of the time (45%) that they are transgender or gender non-conforming even if they don’t tell them

At the very least, it doesn't really seem to help matters.

Can you also comment on body integrity identity disorder? Do you think they should get their limbs cut off by a doctor?

Believe me when I say, every trans person I know has gone over those questions (or similar ones) again and again and again. "What if I turn out to be wrong? What if? What if?".

I believe you. I truly wish you the best.