I wouldn't say the Pope is a jerk. His intentions are good, he just goes about it the wrong way. And his seemingly pushy methods aren't really an indication of being a jerk. If he ridiculed others for disagreeing with him, or if he was really shoving religion down people's throats (more so), then he would be a jerk, but he's not, AFAIK.
Is the Pope a jerk?
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Harvin87
The Youth
"Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached"
Benedict on Islam
I find that quote epic because Christianity is not well placed when speaking about "spreading the sword for the faith"
hehe, I dont know what to think about Benedict.
Benedict on Islam
I find that quote epic because Christianity is not well placed when speaking about "spreading the sword for the faith"
hehe, I dont know what to think about Benedict.
Lillefix
I'm serious. You can.
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I won't bother to look it up, but it is wrong to write "Benedict on Islam".
I assume this was the thing he said in Germany, and which muslims complained about a few years ago. That was only a quote from some byzanthian scholar from the 14th century. Benedict said it, but he didn't of course mean it.
I assume this was the thing he said in Germany, and which muslims complained about a few years ago. That was only a quote from some byzanthian scholar from the 14th century. Benedict said it, but he didn't of course mean it.
ParadigmShifter
Random Nonsense Generator
I thought he was infallible?
It wasn't just a Byzantine scholar. It was the Emperor, Manouel II. He was mostly pissed because his dad made some stupid decisions and forced him to go along with some of Beyazit Yıldırım's Ottoman Turks to besiege a Byzantine city. (Weird, right? The hell is a Byzantine crown prince doing attacking Byzantine cities and giving them to the Turks...?) So he was pissed about Islam and took out his frustration on some Iranian who happened to be along for the ride too.
Only in a very restricted set of circumstances.
Harvin87
The Youth
then why he said that? ... just to see "what happens" ... ?
aronnax
Let your spirit be free
The Pope isnt being a Jerk. He may be going to Czech Republic, holding a ceremony and want atheists to convert, but he ain't forcing people to listen.
Its more comparable to a your Christian friend who asked you nicely once or twice whether or not you want to go to his Church's carnival fundraiser and you say no and he leaves you alone.
Its more comparable to a your Christian friend who asked you nicely once or twice whether or not you want to go to his Church's carnival fundraiser and you say no and he leaves you alone.
Thoughtful Thug
Deity
I heard a rumor that the Pope didn't put down the toliet seat and left soapy mess in the bathroom sink. What a intentional jerk.
Another rumor was that the Pope forgot to hold a door for an old lady as she was behind him at a McDonald restaurant. What a jerk.
An intentional jerk or not is always a jerk? I think not.
Another rumor was that the Pope forgot to hold a door for an old lady as she was behind him at a McDonald restaurant. What a jerk.
An intentional jerk or not is always a jerk? I think not.
Erik Mesoy
Core Tester / Intern
This bears repeating. Papal infallibility must be explicitly invoked. The invocation usually starts with something like "We declare as a matter of dogma..." and ends with "...and let anyone who disagrees be anathema." Additionally, it can only apply to matters of faith or morals. Papal infallibility defaults to OFF.
What was the last infallible thing a pope said?
This quote is from a quote mining episode, intended to confuse & spread dissent.
It's important to not let the quote miners gain traction
This quote is from a quote mining episode, intended to confuse & spread dissent.
It's important to not let the quote miners gain traction
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
The last time papal infallibility was invoked was in Pope Pius XII's 1950 Munificentissimus Deus, defining of the dogma of the Assumption of Mary.
Papal Infallibility itself did not become a dogma until 1870, so it could be argued that that was in fact the only time papal infallibility was ever used. Most people also count Pope Pius IX's 1854 Ineffabilis Deus, defining the immaculate conception, as an invocation of Papal Infallibility too though. No one really agrees on what, if anything, counts as a use of Papal Infallibility before that.
(I just thought I'd note that in both cases where infallibility was used I consider the pope to have been dead wrong.)
These days the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has the authority to decide what is and what is not an ex cathedra declaration, so the pope can only be considered infallible when the council agrees with him. When Cardinal Ratzinger (who is now Pope Benedict XVI) was in charge of the CDF it explicitly declared that Pope John Paul II's 1994 apostolic letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis (which declared that no women could be ordained as priests) was not ex cathedra and thus not an instance of papal infallibility, but that the contents of the letter merely reaffirmed a docrine that the church had long taught as infallible.
Lillefix
I'm serious. You can.
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If any is interested in Dawkins' opinion about the assumption of Mary and the pope' infallibility about it, go to 09.25 on the following video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVr9bJ8Sctk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVr9bJ8Sctk&feature=related
Lord Gay
Emperor
I can't add much to the discussion, since I'm biased against xianity, and Catholicism in particular. While I strongly disagree with the religion the Pope belongs to, I feel he has as much right to discuss his views/beliefs as anybody else. Is he a jerk?
I guess for me personally I'm not that fond of any kind of salesman. I don't like telemarketers calling me, I don't like signs and ads and billboards and commercials bombarding me each and every day, I don't like people trying to push me to get the latest model of their product, or purchase the extended warranty. If I WANT help or advice, I'll ask for it, and be appreciative of it. But when help or advice is foisted on me unasked for, I tend to resent it and think ill of the "helper".
I see religion, particularly xianity, as being a sales religion. People here are always trying to sell their faith. "Sign up now and get a free jacuzzi in the afterlife !" I feel constantly bombarded by xian propaganda to buy in to their religion, from door-to-door salesmen, to tv networks and radio ads, to flyers on my car windshield, to Chick tracks in phone booths, to street-corner proselytizers, to politicians vying to out-god each other. This stems in large part I feel from the order to xians to spread the Word.
It would be nice if the world let each other alone, but pushing people to follow you and think as you do is sadly an unfortunate part of reality. If xians are going to push me to swallow their blue pill, and nobody calls them jerks on it, then I have no problem with others pushing back, advising to take the red pill.
As an aside, I like this line of yours:
I guess for me personally I'm not that fond of any kind of salesman. I don't like telemarketers calling me, I don't like signs and ads and billboards and commercials bombarding me each and every day, I don't like people trying to push me to get the latest model of their product, or purchase the extended warranty. If I WANT help or advice, I'll ask for it, and be appreciative of it. But when help or advice is foisted on me unasked for, I tend to resent it and think ill of the "helper".
I see religion, particularly xianity, as being a sales religion. People here are always trying to sell their faith. "Sign up now and get a free jacuzzi in the afterlife !" I feel constantly bombarded by xian propaganda to buy in to their religion, from door-to-door salesmen, to tv networks and radio ads, to flyers on my car windshield, to Chick tracks in phone booths, to street-corner proselytizers, to politicians vying to out-god each other. This stems in large part I feel from the order to xians to spread the Word.
It would be nice if the world let each other alone, but pushing people to follow you and think as you do is sadly an unfortunate part of reality. If xians are going to push me to swallow their blue pill, and nobody calls them jerks on it, then I have no problem with others pushing back, advising to take the red pill.
As an aside, I like this line of yours:
ed
Why do you all assume Pope wants a Catholic Theocracy?
He just wants Czechs to stoping being so secular and morally relative and hedonistic... in other words he just wants them to stop domination European Porn markets.
All Czech nationalistics should support the Pope caling for a better and improved Czech Republic, rather then a hedonistic and decadent one.
Pope is not a JERK when he has all the right intentions.
He just wants Czechs to stoping being so secular and morally relative and hedonistic... in other words he just wants them to stop domination European Porn markets.
All Czech nationalistics should support the Pope caling for a better and improved Czech Republic, rather then a hedonistic and decadent one.
Pope is not a JERK when he has all the right intentions.
Erik Mesoy
Core Tester / Intern
Footnote: Depending on your point of view, he either brokered a nice compromise there, or weaseled out of dealing with the argument that the declaration was supposed to address in the first place. There was some debate within the church over whether Mary died and with certainty went to heaven, or went to heaven while still alive like Elijah, and the Pope said infallibly that Mary went to heaven at the end of her life.
If Dawkins is a jerk for arguing his case, then the Pope must be too. However, I don't think that arguing your case does indeed make anyone a jerk. Nevertheless, the Pope is a jerk for his views on secularism etc, and of course because he is the (figure)head of a monolithic, historically anti-scientific behemoth of social ******ation.
You can simultaneously be hedonistic and 'better and improved'. Besides, reducing secularism is no way at all to go about bettering a country.
You can simultaneously be hedonistic and 'better and improved'. Besides, reducing secularism is no way at all to go about bettering a country.
I go to Catholic School and Papal Infalliablity was only invoked twice, that is the offical story of the church! The Pope used Papal Infalliability to declare that thing about Mary but it is hardly political or he declared it just because he wanted to weasle out of an arguement. Cardinals would argue over doctrine and the Pope usedhis infalliablity to make a descision. Why does this matter to people who are not Catholic is beyond me.
The Pope's message in Czech republic should be accepted by all, it is a good message of love, anti-hedonism, anti-moral relativism etc. Perfect for the further advancement of Czechs as a nationalistic nation beyond this politically correct "internationale porn depo" it is currently
Secualrism is taken to the extreme by the pro-secularists. Secularism loses people's souls and love of their nation. This is what the pope addresses in his anti-moral relativism stance. Moral relativism is for people who want to say that everyone's side is correct but what wholesome argument is that only your side is correct. If the Czech's think that their country is worth anything or is any way special then they would embrace the Pope's message.
Pope's message is to end hedonism in this country, he is not shooting for a "better improved and hedonistic" message. Only better improved and less hedonistic. This is pure.
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