is this racism?

[Quackers]

@Idiots
I find it really strange you seem to think people don't automatically deserve respect. And I use "deserve" in its everyday sense. As in, it is their right to have respect.

Do you think that it would be right for people to abuse you physically and verbally when you first meet them?

I'm willing to consider this - if this is what you mean. It is a very novel idea to me.

That does seem to be the implication to me. A completely ******** way to go about your life in my opinion.

Anyway maybe we've misinterpreted what he said and he actually means something else....

 

[Borachio]

Maybe this an English/American divide. Who knows?

Maybe a simple semantic difficulty.

 

[Arwon]

Does Italy like, not have black people? The headline kind of reads like he's some great novelty? Like, "look how good our black man is!"

 

[Borachio]

About average for Europe, I guess. So ~5% of the population. Mostly in cities.

 

[Lillefix]

Does Italy like, not have black people? The headline kind of reads like he's some great novelty? Like, "look how good our black man is!"

0.47% of the population are sub Saharan Africans. Officially at least. If we include all these people who try to sell you watches and handbags it's much more I assume.

 

[holy king]

and coconuts.

 

[JollyRoger]

I don't see how this is rasist as it does not appear to be related to affirmative action.

 

[Borachio]

And how is selling someone a watch, a handbag, and a coconut not rasist?

Or is it femi-sist?

 

[wolfigor]

Simple. No one deserves respect just for existing, or for some quality that they inherently have. Respect is something to be earned, not something to be given.

If everybody could get what they deserve, nobody will be spared a good beating

Okay, to put him on the same level as an ape is horrible.

Yes, this is very bad, especially considering the abuses (bananas) that he had to suffer before.
However the cartoon hints more to Balotelli's very impetuous attitude than to the colour of his skin.

Does Italy like, not have black people? The headline kind of reads like he's some great novelty? Like, "look how good our black man is!"

In Italy immigration from sub-Sahara Africa is relatively recent.
We do have "black" people but very few are naturalised and present in top level sport.
Balotelli is the very first in Italian antional football team.
We had one in our national basketball team a few years ago.
So, yes, people with black skin in national team are a novelty.


However there is a cultural attitude at play here.
Italians like to peek at people on what makes them angry... it's the typical way to make fun of people.
For example Ruud Gullit never had such problem with his skin colour in the press.
Balotelli has more pressure about it in the media because of his colourful reaction to it.

 

[Snorrius]

I don't know how the joke works in Italian, but in English this would be pretty taboo.

What Mise said.

Well, every culture has its amusing taboos. It is certainly not true for many European countries. Personally I do not see a problem because as far as I understand in this case "black" here does not bring bad connotations - on the contrary it used in the context of victory, that's why it is hardly any racism here.

 

[Borachio]

Yes, but the point is would the headlines have mentioned that a white player was white?

I think if the answer is no, then the black comment is racist. Positively meant or not.

 

[Snorrius]

Yes, but the point is would the headlines have mentioned that a white player was white?

It did not mention he is black though you certainly can see this in the photograph. I still do not understand what is the problem: is being black is something bad? Actually, given the quite somewhat distorted image of afro people in the European countries it is more like positive propaganda to associate them with positive qualities.

I think if the answer is no, then the black comment is racist. Positively meant or not.

The standards of "crossing the line" are very different in different countries. USA because of the slavery had fubar situation that's why they tabooed race in any application - so people would not delved into the long history which is better to be forgotten. That's why even very light and positive remarks involving race are prohibited. There were no such history in most of European countries hence no taboo on race issues and different attitude.

 

[Borachio]

"neri" is Italian for black, yes?

 

[Snorrius]

"neri" is Italian for black, yes?

It is a slang expression meaning to bruise (as article says). And yes, it is also means black.

 

[Snorrius]

Don't you think blacks who face injustice, discrimination, and persecution on a regular basis deserve at least respect for not responding in kind?

It may be true for USA with its horrible scores of slavery and racial segregation but not true for other countries where there were no such things. You need a national sense of guilt like in USA to make one race group pay automatic respect to other one. It will not work in a country where there are no grounds for such sense of guilt.

 

[BvBPL]

So the Italian subjugation of Ethiopia isn't sufficient for Italians to feel bad about portraying a black man as a monkey? Exactly how much oppression needs to be served out before the majority recognizes that suggesting that a person is sub-human might be a bit off color?

 

[Snorrius]

So the Italian subjugation of Ethiopia isn't sufficient for Italians to feel bad about portraying a black man as a monkey?

Those a very different cases.

If someone presents a black person a banana, he deserves a good beating. It is not a question of "respect", it is a question of basic politeness.

But remark to which you have answered was related to paying "automatic" respect and piety to some race group. For these there should be very strong grounds to form a national sense of guilt in those who are expected to pay such respect. It is easy to understand why this happened in US with its slavery and institutionalized racial segregation and certainly USAins indeed should pay such automatic respect for a couple or two generations.

And no, subjugation of Ethiopia is not enough to form a national sense of guilt so do not expect there taboos like in USA.

 

[BvBPL]

The system of ethical calculus you are proposing is a joke. It doesn't make any sense and cannot be extended to other situations. If it did then the English would be automatically respectful for the Irish and Catholics.

 

[Borachio]

It may be true for USA with its horrible scores of slavery and racial segregation but not true for other countries where there were no such things. You need a national sense of guilt like in USA to make one race group pay automatic respect to other one. It will not work in a country where there are no grounds for such sense of guilt.

My emphasis. There is no reason to make one race group pay automatic respect to another. Absolutely none. There should be no reason why individuals do not pay automatic respect to another individual. And if they do not, they should be castigated for it. Automatically.

What kind of world do you want to live in?

Those a very different cases.

If someone presents a black person a banana, he deserves a good beating. It is not a question of "respect", it is a question of basic politeness.

But remark to which you have answered was related to paying "automatic" respect and piety to some race group. For these there should be very strong grounds to form a national sense of guilt in those who are expected to pay such respect. It is easy to understand why this happened in US with its slavery and institutionalized racial segregation and certainly USAins indeed should pay such automatic respect for a couple or two generations.

And no, subjugation of Ethiopia is not enough to form a national sense of guilt so do not expect there taboos like in USA.

My emphasis. Respect, in my book, is the same as basic politeness.

As for national guilt, I really can't think of nation that hasn't good cause for guilt. Can you?

With specific reference to slavery, there hasn't been a country that hasn't used it at some time. Maybe not African slaves, I'll grant you.

 

[Snorrius]

The system of ethical calculus you are proposing is a joke.

I do not propose it, I just state a matter of fact.

It doesn't make any sense and cannot be extended to other situations.

Yet again, it is not some rules to be implemented and used as system. I've just explained why in USA black people are in some way are payed "automatic" respect. It is similar to the complex of national guilt formed by Germans after WW2 (though it mostly expired now due to the time passed). But it is silly to expect nations without similar bitter history to have similar sense of guilt.

If it did then the English would be automatically respectful for the Irish and Catholics.

Why should they? They were killing each other and were more or less equal in their reasoning.