is this racism?

[Snorrius]

As for national guilt, I really can't think of nation that hasn't good cause for guilt. Can you?

It is not the question of can you think or not of "good causes" for a nation to have a guilt according to your own moral standards. The question is a given nation have such guilt. For example, we Russians do not have such guilt to any nation (especially to afro people because there was little of them in Russia nor they were enslaved or segregated) nor we have any decent reasons to feel such guilt.

That's said, comparing to such xenophobic cultures like Anglo-Saxon Russia was traditionally much more tolerate society.

 

[Borachio]

Well. I guess we'll do well to agree to differ on Russian tolerance. I expect a lot depends on your perspective. And your definition of tolerance.

 

[Save_Ferris]

We don't own slaves, generations 150 years ago did. Isn't the point of racism against associating people by genetics? Besides, even then very few people actually owned slaves.

 

[Core Imposter]

Its only racist if a guy like me wrote it.

 

[Mise]

1) The idea that the entire nation is collectively racist doesn't make me feel any better about this tbh. Saying "oh well we in Italy don't have the same taboos about portraying black people as monkeys or apes as you do in England" doesn't sound like much of a defence to me. "In this country, it's culturally acceptable to lynch black people" would equally be no defence for the USA in the 1950s.

2) There was, in fact, backlash against the Italian publication for printing this headline in Italy, so the idea that the entire nation is collectively racist doesn't really hold much water anyway. And I'm glad that this is controversial.

3) I'm surprised that some people think that it's okay to treat people differently because of their race in this thread, but in the AA thread are dead against any whiff of racial bias. What's the difference between a news publication giving favourable press to a man because he is black, and a university giving favourable admission to a man because he is black? It just seems to me that treating someone differently because of their race is "okay" in this case, purely because it's "positive" discrimination. But AA is bad exactly because it's positive "discrimination".

I know there is a difference -- a technical difference, which I'm sure you will pick out and point out to me ad nauseum -- but I don't see a difference in spirit. I really think that there is a double standard - that people who are "okay" with the headline are just a little bit racist, and want a "safe" outlet for that in the form of "positive" discrimination, such as in the headline. But it isn't positive at all -- it just perpetuates the notion that he is different.

 

[Borachio]

We don't own slaves, generations 150 years ago did. Isn't the point of racism against associating people by genetics? Besides, even then very few people actually owned slaves.

I think the slavery thing is a red herring.

Its only racist if a guy like me wrote it.

Or me. I think we are all of us racist. Just a teeny bit - even though we may not like it.

Apart from the white supremacists who plainly love it. Why, is beyond me.

Anyway, the headline in the OP was, to be exact, casual racism i.e. racism which is not really aware of itself. And like Snorrius says, needs to beaten over the head with a big stick. (I paraphrase. A lot.)

 

[del62]

That's said, comparing to such xenophobic cultures like Anglo-Saxon Russia was traditionally much more tolerate society.

So the pale of settlement never happened?

 

[Borachio]

Just, don't mention the pogroms. OK?

 

[innonimatu]

Yes, but the point is would the headlines have mentioned that a white player was white?

I think if the answer is no, then the black comment is racist. Positively meant or not.

You've got something seriously wrong in your understanding of racism. Racism is not about skin color. Skin color is an objective facts which should not be denied out of any misconducted racist fear.

Racism is about tagging onto the objective facts additional invented differences, and usually differences that tar some sub-population as "inferior" in some way. The original fact (which does not have to be skin color, just anything that can be identified as distinctive) is not the problem.

In this case I see no ill intention.

 

[Borachio]

OK. Your point is good.

But I think my understanding is correct.

Racism, and indeed any other form of prejudice (of which there are many), is being derogatory, or otherwise acting in a negative way, about some characteristic that the person concerned can do nothing about. This is why it is wrong and unfair.

I can only repeat that if the player had been white, then no mention would have been made of his colour (and I am very confident that this true). It is this that makes the newspaper headline casually racist.

And "casually" implies there was no deliberate intent to offend. But I am less confident that this is true.

 

[innonimatu]

I think that someone mentioned that there was prior of racism history with this player. I don't know the details. But I don't think that strenuously avoiding anything that might somehow remember that is the best way to deal with it.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, or being too kind towards the paper, but the pun seems to me actually an attack on skin-color-based racism. It's fought not by hiding the differences used as markers by racists (wouldn't that become "racism by absence"?), but by integrating them as normal facts of life. Skin color should be usable for puns, as should long hair, birthmarks, or whatever else that makes one member of a group noticeable. Detach skin color from all the falsities which past racists attached to it - that's the way to kill skin-color-based racism. Racism won't exist when skin color can be talked about as any other physical trait - just one among so many.

 

[Borachio]

I think that someone mentioned that there was prior of racism history with this player. I don't know the details. But I don't think that strenuously avoiding anything that might somehow remember that is the best way to deal with it.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, or being too kind towards the paper, but the pun seems to me actually an attack on skin-color-based racism. It's fought not by hiding the differences used as markers by racists (wouldn't that become "racism by absence"?), but by integrating them as normal facts of life. Skin color should be usable for puns, as should long hair, birthmarks, or whatever else that makes one member of a group noticeable. Detach skin color from all the falsities which past racists attached to it - that's the way to kill skin-color-based racism. Racism won't exist when skin color can be talked about as any other physical trait - just one among so many.

What you say makes a lot of sense. And in an ideal world that would be the way to go. But I think we're a fair way off it at the moment.

There used to be a very great deal of racism on British football terraces of the kind seen recently in Ukraine. The only way the British football clubs got it under control was by giving life bans to any supporters indulging in racial chants or throwing bananas and the like.

So I think at this stage the only way to rid the world of racism is a zero tolerance approach. Petty as it might seem.

And if some let us say not very bright Italian football supporters see some not very well thought out headline, doesn't that normalize even more overtly racist behaviour for them? I think there is a real danger it does.

But in any case, I know nothing about anything. My opinion counts for even less.

My username is Borachio - and I endorse this message.

 

[Snorrius]

1) The idea that the entire nation is collectively racist doesn't make me feel any better about this tbh. Saying "oh well we in Italy don't have the same taboos about portraying black people as monkeys or apes as you do in England" doesn't sound like much of a defence to me. "In this country, it's culturally acceptable to lynch black people" would equally be no defence for the USA in the 1950s.

Let me repeat my words: in USA (and other Anglo-Saxon) there is a taboo on mentioning skin color because in this country it was the criterion for racism. It is not the case for many countries, Russia included. We have our share of ethnic tensions but skin color was never used for institutionalized racism that's why no taboo arised, so it is not a problem to make such puns as long as no race inferiority implied.

As for Jews they indeed had numerous hardships in Europe but the skin color have nothing with this. It was actually not as much race issue as religious one.

So I think at this stage the only way to rid the world of racism is a zero tolerance approach. Petty as it might seem.

Based on Anglo-Saxon standards of what is racist I presume. Well, you are entitled to do whatever you wish in your countries, but please stay away from other cultures as your policy "one size fits all" will not work. You would also make a big favour to the world by stopping spreading your puritanical obsession with different sexual issues and your quite unique view how to deal with them.

 

[del62]

As for Jews they indeed had numerous hardships in Europe but the skin color have nothing with this. It was actually not as much race issue as religious one.

Let see what you said originally

That's said, comparing to such xenophobic cultures like Anglo-Saxon Russia was traditionally much more tolerate society.

I really dont see how the treatment of Jews in Russia makes them a tradionally more tolerant society than "Anglo-Saxon" cultures , whether we call it racism or another form of intolerance, people where still driven from homes and treated as second class citizens.

 

[Borachio]

Based on Anglo-Saxon standards of what is racist I presume. Well, you are entitled to do whatever you wish in your countries, but please stay away from other cultures as your policy "one size fits all" will not work. You would also make a big favour to the world by stopping spreading your puritanical obsession with different sexual issues and your quite unique view how to deal with them.

Thank you for your insight.

I repeat: I know nothing - my opinions are worthless.

 

[Formaldehyde]

It is not the question of can you think or not of "good causes" for a nation to have a guilt according to your own moral standards. The question is a given nation have such guilt. For example, we Russians do not have such guilt to any nation (especially to afro people because there was little of them in Russia nor they were enslaved or segregated) nor we have any decent reasons to feel such guilt.

That's said, comparing to such xenophobic cultures like Anglo-Saxon Russia was traditionally much more tolerate society.

Not much racism towards blacks in Russia, and it is not a xenophobic society like many Anglo-Saxon ones? How interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Russia

Racism in Russia appears mainly in the form of negative attitudes and actions by Russians towards people who are not considered ethnically Russian. Traditionally, this included antisemitism, as well as hostility towards various ethnicities of Caucasus and Central Asia.[1] The director of the Moscow Bureau for Human Rights, Alexander Brod, stated that surveys show xenophobia and other racist expressions are prevalent in 50 percent of Russians.[2] In 2006, Amnesty International reported that racism in Russia was “out of control” and estimated the number of Russian neo-Nazis at around 85,000 in 2008.[3][4]

Attitude towards African people were generally neutral during the Soviet Union, because of its internationalist agenda.[27] As a part of its support of decolonization of Africa, the Soviet Union offered free education for citizens of African states.[28] African students (as well as other foreign students) were placed in many higher education institutions throughout the country, most famously at Peoples' Friendship University of Russia, then known as the Patrice Lumumba Peoples' Friendship University, after the Congolese revolutionary and prime minister Patrice Lumumba.[29]

In recent survey, Moscow Protestant Chaplaincy found that over half of Africans in Moscow had been physically attacked in the past.[30] Attacks in Moscow Metro are common, and “Monkey” insults are so frequent that students have ceased reporting them.[31][32]

In 2010, Jean Sagbo became the first black man in Russia to be elected to government. He is a municipal councilor in the village of Novozavidovo, located 100km north of Moscow.

In Russia, the word Caucasian is a collective term referring to anyone descended from the native ethnicity of the Caucasus. In Russian slang, darker skinned Caucasian peoples fall into the category of black.[33] Since the dissolution of the Soviet Union, the rise of the Muslim population in Russia and the Second Chechen War, many Russian radical nationalists have associated Islam and Muslims with terrorism and domestic crimes.[34]

On 21 April 2001, there was a pogrom in market in Moscow Yasenevo District against merchants from the Caucasus.[35] Racially motivated attacks against Armenians in Russia have grown so common that the president of Armenia, Robert Kocharyan, raised the issue with high-ranking Russian officials.[36] In September 2006, major ethnic tensions between Russians and Caucasians took place in Kondopoga.[37] In 2006, Georgia–Russia relations crisis resulted in deportation of Georgians from Russia.[38] Russian side explained the process as law enforcement towards illegal immigrants, whereas the Georgian government accused Russia of ethnic cleansing.[39]

After it was announced that Russia will host 2018 FIFA World Cup, a head of UEFA East European Monitoring Centre, Rafał Pankowski accused the Russian Football Union of downplaying racist chants in stadiums, saying: “Nazi slogans are common in many Russian stadiums. Matches are often interrupted with racist chants aimed at black players.”[51]

Cameroonian player André Amougou constantly suffered racism while playing for Lokomotiv Moscow.[52] As Zenit Saint Petersburg kicked off their 2006/2007 Russian Premier League campaign against visitors Saturn Moscow Oblast, Brazilian footballer Antônio Géder was received with a chorus of monkey chants at Petrovsky Stadium.[53] In March 2008, black players of French side Marseille — including André Ayew, Charles Kaboré and Ronald Zubar — were targeted by fans of Zenit Saint Petersburg.[54] Zenit fans were later warned by police in Manchester not to repeat their behaviour ahead of the 2008 UEFA Cup Final.[55] Zenit's coach Dick Advocaat revealed that when they attempted to sign Mathieu Valbuena, a Frenchman, many fans asked “Is he a negro?”[56] Also Serge Branco, who played for Krylia Sovetov Samara, accused Zenit's staff of racism, saying: “Each time I play in St Petersburg I have to listen to racist insults from the stands. Zenit bosses do not do anything about it which makes me think they are racists too.”[57] On 20 August 2010, Peter Odemwingie of Lokomotiv Moscow signed a 3 year contract with Premier League team West Bromwich Albion.[58] Later, photographs showed Lokomotiv Moscow fans celebrating the sale of Odemwingie through the use of racist banners including the image of a banana with text “Thanks West Brom.”[59]

On 21 March 2011, during a game away at Zenit Saint Petersburg, a banana was held by one of the fans near Roberto Carlos of Russian Premier League club Anzhi Makhachkala as the footballer was taking part in a flag-raising ceremony.[60] In June, in a match away at Krylia Sovetov Samara, Roberto Carlos received a pass from the goalkeeper and was about to pass it when a banana was thrown on to the pitch, landing nearby.[61] The 38-year-old Brazilian picked it up and threw it by the sidelines, walking off the field before the final whistle and raising two fingers at the stands, indicating this was the second such incident.[62]

Lokomotiv Moscow were involved in another incident on 18 March 2012, when a banana was thrown at Anzhi Makhachkala defender Christopher Samba during at a match at the Lokomotiv Stadium.[63]

It is just a shame not all nations can be so "tolerant" of blacks, Jews, Muslims, Chinese, or just about any other group that isn't Russian.

I really don't think racism and xenophobia is based on guilt. It is based on feelings of superiority, and in many cases excessive nationalism.

Let me repeat my words: in USA (and other Anglo-Saxon) there is a taboo on mentioning skin color because in this country it was the criterion for racism. It is not the case for many countries, Russia included. We have our share of ethnic tensions but skin color was never used for institutionalized racism that's why no taboo arised, so it is not a problem to make such puns as long as no race inferiority implied.

Perhaps Russians should develop that "taboo" given that even darker-skinned Caucasus Muslims are labeled as being "black" while many Russian nationalists treat them as terrorists and criminals.

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

There are no mothers and fathers. There are parental human objects.

Not much racism towards blacks in Russia, and it is not a xenophobic society like many Anglo-Saxon ones? How interesting.

It has nothing to do with traditional Russian society (including Soviet one), racism and xenophobia in modern Russia are the result of Americanization, Perestroyka, liberal reforms, etc. You should be proud of that we take your ways properly keeping important aspects of it!

P.S. Too much BBC in the article for it to be credible.

 

[Borachio]

P.S. Too much BBC in the article for it to be credible.

Ouff! What is your preferred source?

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

Ouff! What is your preferred source?

Non-media at least.

Better to play ArmA by yourself than to watch its footages on TV or to read retellings of those footages on Wikipedia, you know...

 

[Snorrius]

Not much racism towards blacks in Russia, and it is not a xenophobic society like many Anglo-Saxon ones? How interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Russia

It is just a shame not all nations can be so "tolerant" of blacks, Jews, Muslims, Chinese, or just about any other group that isn't Russian.

What are you referring to is the interpersonal slur which is quite different from institutionalized racism based on rights' elimination or restriction of which Anglo-Saxon have showed the world marvelously magnificient examples.

I really don't think racism and xenophobia is based on guilt.

You may want to reread this thread to more fully comprehend what I was talking about guilt.

Perhaps Russians should develop that "taboo" given that even darker-skinned Caucasus Muslims are labeled as being "black" while many Russian nationalists treat them as terrorists and criminals.

For this we should first install slavery, then racial segregation after which engulfed by guilt we should proclaim democratic values and start exporting it into other countries bombing the enemies of democracy into smithereens.