[RD] JK Rowling and Explicit Transphobia

[Gorbles]

I follow UK news relatively closely (look through BBC and Guardian almost daily) and I can't remember seeing anything about Rowling, except maybe something shoved in the back of the Entertainment section on really slow news days.
I'm not saying she isn't covered in UK press, but if we are going to talk about the underlying issue -the whole TERF viewpoint- might it be better to focus on the people who at least have some intellectual rigor to their viewpoints, like Germaine Greer, instead of a children's author who is just repeating things she heard elsewhere?

This was a two-second Google. It was also in the actual papers (which I can't source easily). It gets traction. It posits her as a victim (which she is, of domestic abuse) . . . at a time when she's facing legitimate criticism over her transphobic opinions. Both were mentioned in her blog post. Only one is receiving widespread media attention.

Now don't get me wrong. I have nothing but sympathy for victims of domestic abuse. It's the framing, connecting the dots with trans activists (that have absolutely zero relation to her being abused). The blog post that kicked off this thread she linked on Twitter and invoked one of the more recent Twitter features to block anybody from replying. Anybody (though I think it still allows quote tweets, because Twitter is incomprehensibly bad at everything). This immediately cuts down on any actually-hateful responses to this kind of social media interaction.

Yes it is anecdotal. But ask yourself, how many people are thinking to themselves "I would treat trans people with dignity and respect, but a children's author said trans women aren't real women so I guess I'll go with that"?

You overestimate the mainstream education on sex and gender in the UK. There are people I see arguing this fervently online that root their arguments in GCSE biology lessons (to be fair, that's kinda the level TERFs are at as well, so eh).

Anybody known culturally in the UK has a weight to their opinions that ordinary folk like you or me do not. We equate success with intelligence, and intelligence with intelligence across the spectrum of knowledge (as supposed to intelligence in a specific field, like writing fictional novels). Anybody's opinions are inherently seen as worth more or less depending on who voices them. For example, most folks would view Tony Blair's opinions on the modern state of the Middle East with a raised eyebrow at the very least. Even if by some miracle he made a good point, yeah?

Rowling has no such thing in her past looming over her. The pivot to transphobia is relatively (in terms of years alive) recent, and has been amplified by a rather established transphobic group of people in the UK, both in and out of the press (who can forget the time the US Guardian had to write a letter to the UK Guardian for the latter's constant permissiveness of transphobic / TERF talking points?).

 

[aelf]

Are her books still read by teenagers? Teenagers who like her books and follow her might conceivably be influenced by what she says. Even if it's something they could eventually grow out of, it could result in them perpetrating acts of bullying now, which are clearly harmful.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Are her books still read by teenagers? Teenagers who like her books and follow her might conceivably be influenced by what she says. Even if it's something they could eventually grow out of, it could result in them perpetrating acts of bullying now, which are clearly harmful.

Still very popular with teenagers and even younger. They are probably the most popular series in our primary school library.

 

[Ajidica]

I mean good for you you’ve curated your social circle enough that you only see good takes on Rowling’s nonsense. But there is absolutely a contingent of people who might not have been convinced one way or the other who are drawn to Rowling’s opinion solely because it is hers.

But is it thought? I can't imagine there is much overlap between people who follow Rowling on twitter and the evangelical bigots pushing anti-trans policy through the Trump administration.
I'll grant she may have greater influence in the UK, but does she really have all that much influence stateside?

You should have no reason to assume her hate speech is harmless.

So, what should be done?
Deduct ten points from Gryffindor?

This was a two-second Google. It was also in the actual papers (which I can't source easily). It gets traction. It posits her as a victim (which she is, of domestic abuse) . . . at a time when she's facing legitimate criticism over her transphobic opinions. Both were mentioned in her blog post. Only one is receiving widespread media attention.

Now don't get me wrong. I have nothing but sympathy for victims of domestic abuse. It's the framing, connecting the dots with trans activists (that have absolutely zero relation to her being abused). The blog post that kicked off this thread she linked on Twitter and invoked one of the more recent Twitter features to block anybody from replying. Anybody (though I think it still allows quote tweets, because Twitter is incomprehensibly bad at everything). This immediately cuts down on any actually-hateful responses to this kind of social media interaction.

You overestimate the mainstream education on sex and gender in the UK. There are people I see arguing this fervently online that root their arguments in GCSE biology lessons (to be fair, that's kinda the level TERFs are at as well, so eh).

Anybody known culturally in the UK has a weight to their opinions that ordinary folk like you or me do not. We equate success with intelligence, and intelligence with intelligence across the spectrum of knowledge (as supposed to intelligence in a specific field, like writing fictional novels). Anybody's opinions are inherently seen as worth more or less depending on who voices them. For example, most folks would view Tony Blair's opinions on the modern state of the Middle East with a raised eyebrow at the very least. Even if by some miracle he made a good point, yeah?

Errr, I'm afraid you've lost me. This thread, as far as I am aware, is about Rowling making some stupid and offensive comments about trans people.

Rowling has no such thing in her past looming over her. The pivot to transphobia is relatively (in terms of years alive) recent, and has been amplified by a rather established transphobic group of people in the UK, both in and out of the press (who can forget the time the US Guardian had to write a letter to the UK Guardian for the latter's constant permissiveness of transphobic / TERF talking points?).

Can you elaborate? The closest thing I can recall to TERF stuff showing up in the Guardian was some discussion about the presence of MtF athletes competing in female sports, which raises a whole bunch of biological and structural issues for which there are no clear or good answers.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

But is it thought? I can't imagine there is much overlap between people who follow Rowling on twitter and the evangelical bigots pushing anti-trans policy through the Trump administration.
I'll grant she may have greater influence in the UK, but does she really have all that much influence stateside?

Trans people are already incredibly marginalized, both politically and socially, JK's comments are essentially another kick in the teeth, I mean i don't know about you but im sort of getting tired of going online, where i'm supposed to get away from my oppression and seeing people openly entertain the notion that i either i shouldn't exist or that i should just re-enter the closet. It's tiring, but you don't seem to get that, it's like it doesn't even enter your mind

So, what should be done?
Deduct ten points from Gryffindor?

Denounce her, socially shame her, boycott her etc.

Got anymore amazing, good faith arguments?

Errr, I'm afraid you've lost me. This thread, as far as I am aware, is about Rowling making some stupid and offensive comments about trans people.

I made this thread okay and I'm more than happy with it being used to talk about general transissues as well, given how the topic rarely comes up unless it's someone voicing their hot takes or talking about the newest form of legalized discrimination.

Can you elaborate? The closest thing I can recall to TERF stuff showing up in the Guardian was some discussion about the presence of MtF athletes competing in female sports, which raises a whole bunch of biological and structural issues for which there are no clear or good answers.

They've repeatedly platformed terfs to the point the US branch ended up signing a letter telling them to quit it.

 

[Gary Childress]

I'm not good at starting topics, but this is an important topic for me, as it has implications for transpeople in general.

JK Rowling, of Harry Potter fame, seems to have an issue with transpeople; she's not only liked tweets espousing Trans Exclusionary rhetoric, but also has put out a few statements that even with context, are pretty "yikes".

Her latest foray into the topic is to misgender transmen and then repeat her basic claim that allowing transwomen into female changing spaces is dangerous on the basis of cismen taking advantage of it to sexually abuse women, which in itself is a transphobic argument often used by terfs to scaremonger about transwomen.

It's genuinely depressing seeing someone with her level of fame, influence and followers tweet what is essentially bile.

Edit:

For context here's the argument she's made https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/...ns-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/:



Her insistence that in allowing transwomen into women's spaces you are essentially letting men in is, what i personally believe, an instance of her mask slipping and her showing us all what we truly thinks of transwomen, not to mention this telling passage:



Where she equates transmen to women, an act which in and of itself is transphobic.

Now, JK claims she isn't transphobic, even as she repeats arguments used to attack transpeople, but i don't really buy that, not just because she has a history of doing it, but because she's repeatedly doubled down everytime she slips up and reveals how she truly feels.

I don't know. It seems like a valid concern to me. Rowling was apparently a victim of male abuse. She probably has some issues trusting men. Maybe Rowling herself doesn't fancy sharing a bathroom with a male who "identifies" as female? So what? There are worse crimes out there.

A friend of mine recently changed her name to a male name and says she identifies as male. She also says she's been raped before by someone she even thought was a friend. I would think using a public men's room maybe isn't the best idea.

 

[Robo-Star]

I don't know. It seems like a valid concern to me. Rowling was apparently a victim of male abuse. She probably has some issues trusting men. Maybe Rowling herself doesn't fancy sharing a bathroom with a male who "identifies" as female? So what?

So why should we cater to her fancies and not said male's?

 

[Gary Childress]

So why should we cater to her fancies and not said male's?

Or vice versa, I suppose.

 

[Synobun]

A friend of mine recently changed his name to a male name and says he identifies as male. He also says he's been raped before by someone he even thought was a friend.

FTFY.

 

[Gary Childress]

FTFY.

Your words, not mine.

 

[Senethro]

Your words, not mine.

Fixed that for you.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Your words, not mine.

Not sure how good a friend you are if you won't even take a nanosecond to use the correct pronouns for your trans masculine friend.

It takes barely any effort on your part.

don't know. It seems like a valid concern to me. Rowling was apparently a victim of male abuse. She probably has some issues trusting men. Maybe Rowling herself doesn't fancy sharing a bathroom with a male who "identifies" as female? So what? There are worse crimes out there.

But I'm not a man okay, I didn't transition so I could be treated like a man, what about this difficult for people to grasp?

I don't want to use the menu toilets least of because I could and have been assaulted for doing exactly that. It's a safety issue that Cispeople take for granted.

You clearly don't have any interest in the subject.

friend of mine recently changed her name to a male name and says she identifies as male. She also says she's been raped before by someone she even thought was a friend. I would think using a public men's room maybe isn't the best idea.

I've disowned people who claimed to be friends but couldn't do the bare minimum of at least respecting my decision to transition.

You need to be there for your friend and support them on their journey. Using the correct pronouns is so minor but is such a big deal to transpeople because it can mean the difference between choosing suicide or choosing to continue living because of affirmation.

 

[Gary Childress]

Not sure how good a friend you are if you won't even take a nanosecond to use the correct pronouns for your trans masculine friend.

It takes barely any effort on your part.



But I'm not a man okay, I didn't transition so I could be treated like a man, what about this difficult for people to grasp?

I don't want to use the menu toilets least of because I could and have been assaulted for doing exactly that. It's a safety issue that Cispeople take for granted.

You clearly don't have any interest in the subject.



I've disowned people who claimed to be friends but couldn't do the bare minimum of at least respecting my decision to transition.

You need to be there for your friend and support them on their journey. Using the correct pronouns is so minor but is such a big deal to transpeople because it can mean the difference between choosing suicide or choosing to continue living because of affirmation.

Well, the whole dysphoria thing came up suddenly a few months ago. I've known her for a couple of years and there was no mention, no inkling of it until recently. She says she "finally came to a realization" or something like that. However, it doesn't sound all that convincing to me. I'm still of the mind that I could possibly talk her out of it. She's complained about loneliness and finding a husband before. If she thinks it was difficult then, I imagine this isn't going to make it any easier. As far as being a friend, if she wants to defriend me because I won't call her him, that's fine. It'll be fewer treks across the other side of town to take her to the grocery store for me.

 

[El_Machinae]

Well, you're trying to migrate the path of least pain for your friend, since it's so hard. So, if changing a pronoun would make them feel more supported, it's worth thinking about. The last thing you want is your friend's angst to be higher than it needs to be when there's a lot of introspection to be done. There's a lot of thinking to be done, and the last thing you want is to remove yourself as a support.

I mean, there's also the chance that they will get used to the 'him' and then decide it's not the tack they want to get.

I expect that you being stern with them will be as useful as us being stern with you. It's not like we can bully you into changing your behaviour or how you feel. Same thing will happen there.

 

[Gary Childress]

Well, you're trying to migrate the path of least pain for your friend, since it's so hard. So, if changing a pronoun would make them feel more supported, it's worth thinking about. The last thing you want is your friend's angst to be higher than it needs to be when there's a lot of introspection to be done. There's a lot of thinking to be done, and the last thing you want is to remove yourself as a support.

I mean, there's also the chance that they will get used to the 'him' and then decide it's not the tack they want to get.

I expect that you being stern with them will be as useful as us being stern with you. It's not like we can bully you into changing your behaviour or how you feel. Same thing will happen there.

To be honest, I'll probably refer to her as him when I'm around her. It will be the path of least resistance and I don't feel like getting into an argument with her. But it will take some getting used to before I feel like I should genuinely use that pronoun. Right now it'll be appeasement. I haven't heard too much from her recently so I haven't really been in a situation where the pronoun issue has come up. But that's mostly because of the COVID 19 situation.

 

[Synobun]

Well, the whole dysphoria thing came up suddenly a few months ago. I've known her for a couple of years and there was no mention, no inkling of it until recently. She says she "finally came to a realization" or something like that. However, it doesn't sound all that convincing to me. I'm still of the mind that I could possibly talk her out of it. She's complained about loneliness and finding a husband before. If she thinks it was difficult then, I imagine this isn't going to make it any easier. As far as being a friend, if she wants to defriend me because I won't call her him, that's fine. It'll be fewer treks across the other side of town to take her to the grocery store for me.

To be honest, I'll probably refer to her as him when I'm around her. It will be the path of least resistance and I don't feel like getting into an argument with her. But it will take some getting used to before I feel like I should genuinely use that pronoun. Right now it'll be appeasement. I haven't heard too much from her recently so I haven't really been in a situation where the pronoun issue has come up. But that's mostly because of the COVID 19 situation.

What an absurd level of narcissistic arrogance you adhere to. Why would he have to prove himself to you before you give him the bare minimum of respect? He didn't tell you about it, therefore it's all a sham? He wants a partner, so why would he make his life more difficult by transitioning? (lmao) If he wants you to respect his identity, you say "Good riddance, now I don't have to go to the grocery store with you anymore"? What an ass thing to say. Everything in these posts just demonstrates how awful you are to people who don't fit your self-centered idea of what it is to be human.

"Talk her out of it"? Ridiculous.

 

[cardgame]

Yes, I'm sure it will take some getting used to. You know what would make that process easier? Practicing. Like, say, with us.

 

[El_Machinae]

To be honest, I'll probably refer to her as him when I'm around her. It will be the path of least resistance and I don't feel like getting into an argument with her. But it will take some getting used to before I feel like I should genuinely use that pronoun. Right now it'll be appeasement. I haven't heard too much from her recently so I haven't really been in a situation where the pronoun issue has come up. But that's mostly because of the COVID 19 situation.

We're still in early days for figuring out how best to help friends when they're trying to figure themselves out. But usually "being supportive" gets the best feedback, especially in the short and medium term (we've not yet run the longer experiments).

 

[innonimatu]

You should have no reason to assume her hate speech is harmless.

And you may think it is "hate speech" that is not harmless. I disagree. She's exercising free speech on her opinions and not calling for violence against anyone. But that is besides the point. The point is: what is the point of this thread? What do you want?

Are her books still read by teenagers? Teenagers who like her books and follow her might conceivably be influenced by what she says. Even if it's something they could eventually grow out of, it could result in them perpetrating acts of bullying now, which are clearly harmful.

Oh, please... are you wishing her books forbidden? Perhaps big bonfires for all her books? Do you wish her imprisoned also? Without pen and paper, lest she write some more. Or just forbidden from speaking in public? Interned in an insane asylum? What?

Must I Goodwin the thread also to point out that this proclaiming "this author is harmful" is an imitation of those who said: these authors are "degenerated"?

Enough. I have seen enough, here and elsewhere, to conclude that this is the old prosecuted attempting to do their own campaign of prosecution. I cannot respect that, much less ever fall along with it. You lose an ally over these things. In fact I'm sure you lost many. Keep playing in your social media playground. The world will move on without you. If it doesn't move outright against you. You're playing with fire: the collapse of tolerance is bad for everyone and can be turned on anyone.

 

[Hygro]

Yes, I'm sure it will take some getting used to. You know what would make that process easier? Practicing. Like, say, with us.

good idea