Julius Streicher and what to do about free speech?

How do we handle dangerous speech?

  • Good speech defeats Bad speech

    Votes: 13 52.0%
  • Something else

    Votes: 12 48.0%

  • Total voters
    25
like certain districts where turnout was way higher than previous
It was higher in virtually ALL districts, every district, every state. Trumpers only pointed at districts with the highest number of Biden votes (black, urban areas) as ones they wanted to throw out. Votes were higher for BOTH sides.
This pandemic cause higher vote turnout across the board. Comparing previous results become far less useful for such an unusual year.

Georgia did do an signature audit on Cobb County.
No fraud found, just like all the recounts didn't change the vote totals to any degree that would endanger the result.
Now, who paid for that audit after Georgia already spent resources and recounted their votes TWICE before the audit.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/elec...0201230-ullvr5pf7faeznk2aequ7sjxwe-story.html

and Biden was 2x more popular than Hillary,

More like Trump was that much more hated than Romney.
Hillary energized voters to come out and vote against her in 2016. Trump doubled down on that energy and got a much larger audience to vote against him.

But yeah, I guess this is OT for this thread, so I'm sorry. Merge discussion to one of the 'politics' threads?

Now I need to find a proper thread to debunk all the disinformation about the capitol riot........
 
Regardless, once you start letting other people decide what is reality for you and control your speech, you will inevitably get someone in power who will make something like that the only "reality" you can say.

Having some people buy into conspiracy nutcase stuff is a comparatively small price.

... Yet you do understand that listening to people who know what they're talking about is a good thing, right? :l
 
Regardless, once you start letting other people decide what is reality for you and control your speech, you will inevitably get someone in power who will make something like that the only "reality" you can say.

Having some people buy into conspiracy nutcase stuff is a comparatively small price.



People don't decide what you are going to decide reality is. People just report what reality is. And if you decide you need to live in white supremacist fashy land instead of the real world, no one can stop you.

But anyone saying this election was stolen is just lying. There isn't any shred of evidence of that. But the people who want to believe the lie, at least some portion of them are willing to be terrorists. To murder innocent people. To try and topple the government and replace it with an authoritarian dictatorship.

So the claim that the election was stolen is in fact an incitement to terrorism and murder. And, like crying fire in a crowded theater, there is a legitimate public interest in not allowing people to act that way. Now sure, you want to incite terrorism and treason, no one can stop you. But the owners of these platforms have no obligation to give you a platform. Go shout it on the street corner.
 
But anyone saying this election was stolen is just lying. There isn't any shred of evidence of that.

You're lying, and if your censorship practices have their way, you should be removed from posting this because it's a lie.

If that doesn't sound like something you want to see, screw off with the censorship nonsense.

So the claim that the election was stolen is in fact an incitement to terrorism and murder.

Factually incorrect. Words have meaning, and you're making up different ones.

... Yet you do understand that listening to people who know what they're talking about is a good thing, right? :l

Everybody in power will claim credibility on basis of "we know what we're talking about". You will hear that from authorities when they say it's a good idea to get enough vitamins. You will hear that from authorities when they say that lockdowns are justified. You will hear that from authorities as they harvest the organs of specific religious/ethnic groups in their country.

It was higher in virtually ALL districts, every district, every state. Trumpers only pointed at districts with the highest number of Biden votes (black, urban areas) as ones they wanted to throw out. Votes were higher for BOTH sides.

The statistical oddities are the degrees in specific areas, what's quoted doesn't refute the position based on evidence.

:lol:Reality:
noun

  1. 1.
    the world or the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them.
    "he refuses to face reality"

We are watching big tech attempt exactly what I wrote in real time, often with government backing.
 
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The statistical oddities are the degrees in specific areas, what's quoted doesn't refute the position based on evidence.

Let me know if you have anything not already addressed in this article:

How to make a vote-fraud claim stick: Misread a ‘statistic.’
Trump’s supporters pluck ballot numbers out of context to give them the veneer of fact.
Ronna McDaniel, chairwoman of the Republican National Committee, foreground, and Kayleigh McEnany, the White House press secretary, at RNC headquarters in Washington on Monday alleging, without evidence, that there may have been widespread voter fraud in the 2020 presidential election. (Samuel Corum/Getty Images)
By James Surowiecki
James Surowiecki is the author of "The Wisdom of Crowds" and a business columnist for Marker by Medium.
November 11, 2020 at 5:00 a.m. CST

President Trump has gone all in on his contention that the 2020 election was stolen from him. Republican leaders, for their part, refuse to oppose him or the Hail Mary legal cases he is feverishly pursuing in every state he can. But the real battle to delegitimize this election is being waged on social media, where for the past week Trump supporters, and everyone else, have seen a barrage of claims about supposed election fraud — claims that, even after the president steps down, will leave tens of millions of Americans convinced that Trump was robbed.


You’ve probably seen the most basic of these claims, which focus on individual cases of alleged fraud: the blind woman in Nevada who said her mail-in ballot had been stolen and filled out by someone else; the election worker in Georgia captured on video angrily crumpling up a piece of paper that Trump supporters insisted was a ballot. (It wasn’t.) But the more common, and more effective, claims have been those that purport to be dispassionate statistical analyses documenting election fraud — or at least the possibility of fraud — by just presenting the numbers.

These tweets, Facebook and blog posts, and website pieces — bearing titles like “There Is Undeniable Mathematical Evidence the Election is Being Stolen” and “The Statistical Case Against Biden’s Win” — started appearing almost as soon as the election results did. They purported to document implausibly high turnout in individual states, and highly suspect election outcomes. When you dug into the numbers, the “evidence” of fraud turned out to be neither undeniable nor “statistical.” Yet that’s done little to stop the parade of misinformation.

In some cases, the numbers at issue were simply invented out of whole cloth. One chart that made the rounds on Twitter last week included what were supposedly voter-registration numbers in various swing states next to vote totals from Tuesday’s election. They were meant to show that in these states the number of votes cast had been larger than the number of registered voters. The numbers were wrong (they were from 2018, a midterm election, when registration numbers were much lower), and the claim was ludicrous. But you can still find people retweeting it today. Similarly, conservative operative Harlan Hill — who was, all on his own, a veritable fount of misinformation about election results — tweeted last Wednesday that Wisconsin’s voter turnout had risen from 67 percent in 2016 to 89 percent in 2020. This, also, was untrue. (Wisconsin’s turnout this year is around 72 percent.) But before that claim was flagged by Twitter as potentially false, it was featured by Donald Trump Jr. in a Facebook post, and retweeted by Eric Trump with the tagline “Absolute fraud!”

Americans knew Trump would lie about fraud. Now it won’t work.

Flat-out false numbers are, of course, easier to debunk. So the more artful way of presenting dubious numbers has been to simply omit any context, and to suggest the numbers are self-evidently outrageous. When former federal prosecutor and Trump ally Sidney Powell appeared on Maria Bartiromo’s Fox News show Sunday, she said her group had identified “at least 450,000 votes” in “key states” where the ballot had been marked for Joe Biden but for no other candidate. This, Powell argued, was clearly problematic, while Bartiromo, for her part, said it merited a “massive government investigation.” The only problem with this analysis, as many people have pointed out since, is that “undervotes” — ballots where voters don’t vote in all the races listed — are surprisingly common in the United States, so much that in 2016, close to 2 million more votes were cast for president than for Senate candidates. The 450,000 number, then, isn’t especially surprising.

But to know that, you would have to know how common undervoting is, and most Americans — quite reasonably — don’t. (Bartiromo, in this case, did not inform them.) Omitting context thus transforms an unremarkable statistic into one that seems like a sign that something fishy is going on. The same is true of turnout numbers. In a recent piece for the Trumpist site the National Pulse, Steve Cortes — a senior adviser to the Trump campaign — claimed the 84 percent registered-voter turnout in Milwaukee this year “def[ied] reasonable expectations.” What Cortes failed to mention was that registered-voter turnout in Milwaukee in 2016 was 80 percent. So the increase to 84 percent, far from defying expectation, was predictable, given that turnout in Wisconsin as a whole was up about 5 percent. Hill, meanwhile, was at it again for Minnesota. He mockingly said it was “totally believable and consistent” (meaning it wasn’t) that certain Minnesota counties showed preregistered-voter turnout numbers that were above 90 percent. What he didn’t mention was that an apples-to-apples comparison to 2016 showed that same turnout number was almost 91 percent for the entire state (and was higher than that in certain counties).

In other words, this year’s turnout numbers are both believable and historically consistent.

Trump cites numbers like you wouldn’t believe. And probably shouldn’t.

Of course, these claims can be debunked reasonably easily (I spent a good chunk of last week on Twitter doing it), since the relevant data is literally just a few clicks away. But once these claims escape, as it were, into the wild (or onto Facebook, which has far more reach than Twitter), it’s hard to limit their spread, particularly because social media is perfectly designed to amplify them. Hill, for instance, had his tweets casting doubt on the legitimacy of Wisconsin’s turnout numbers picked up by both Trump brothers (with their millions of followers), and then retweeted by Wall Street Journal op-ed columnist Kimberley Strassel, who said the 89 percent registered-turnout number was “not feasible.” The number was not just feasible, it was unsurprising. Her tweet was nonetheless picked up by Sean Hannity and featured on his show on Fox. This chain of transmission doesn’t just spread misinformation; it also, in some sense, launders it, making it seem more respectable and, therefore, more plausible.

By this point, you’re probably a little weary of all these numbers, a little tired of trying to keep the various claims straight. And that, in a way, is the point: No one’s really trying to prove these claims, because they can’t; there is no meaningful statistical evidence of election fraud. What they’re doing is trying to create uncertainty, and doubt, to make it seem like something — even if not the particular thing they’re talking about — is wrong. They’re playing on our instinctive sense that where there’s so much smoke, there must be fire somewhere. But there is no fire. There are just lots of toxic, billowing clouds of nothing, blown here and there by a remarkably efficient smoke machine.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/11/11/vote-fraud-statistic-trump-ballots/
 
The best question here is "What evidence would satisfy you that the election was not stolen?". Its good to ask this sort of thing early and often so that goalpost movement can be accurately measured.
Rudy himself answered this allready. The networks don't decice, the courts do.

Until they didn't. And now it's audits. Unless they don't.

You're expecting those people to stick to goalposts after they have been moving them since day one. Ironically Trump has provided the most clear one, which has been used by all of his acolytes: "if I lose the election, it was rigged".

The end.
 
All the damage being done here is literally the fault of the Trump voters.

They knew he incessantly whined about 'cheating'. Constantly. This means that any concern about actual cheating has been diluted to the point where people literally don't care. And, flipside, that the conversation is also dominated by people who believe him, thus diluting the credibility pool.

If you hire a known Boy Who Cries Wolf to guard your sheep, expect that people will be slower to respond to the wolves.

That TMiT is concerned about some test cases is actually useful. He's not a dumb person and he tries to be honest with himself. Chances are, he knows something we don't. It's too bad he's defending a terrible person. Hopefully agitation makes the less election harder to influence. Hiring someone who constantly lied about everything might have been the wrong move last cycle.
 
Let me know if you have anything not already addressed in this article:



https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/11/11/vote-fraud-statistic-trump-ballots/

Let me know when you've read earlier in the thread.

The best question here is "What evidence would satisfy you that the election was not stolen?". Its good to ask this sort of thing early and often so that goalpost movement can be accurately measured.

Can't speak for others, but I already stated what would convince me.

Rudy himself answered this allready. The networks don't decice, the courts do.

Until they didn't

Correct. The courts should have been active, but they punted. Competent courts would have used audits as the way to decide on merits.

That TMiT is concerned about some test cases is actually useful. He's not a dumb person and he tries to be honest with himself. Chances are, he knows something we don't. It's too bad he's defending a terrible person.

Let's be clear: I'm defending concerns over process (and extending those concerns to YouTube squelching 2020 election fraud videos and *ONLY* election fraud videos related to this election, in an open display of double standards). You might notice the distinction in that I am happy to criticize Trump on multiple grounds, including his abject failure to take serious action against big tech that is the topic of this thread. Towards the end of his term he made a few nods at it, but has done functionally nothing to change their abusive practices or seriously challenge the multiple legal grey areas they operate.

When I see stuff like this: Here Is The Evidence --> I am doubtful. Doubtful of what they're saying (since it's motivated), but also doubtful of the election results, because it's true that in multiple ways (amount of mail in ballots, timing of counting, nature of early vs late mail in ballots, what opposing/winning party was saying about voting security before vs after election) this election was unusual compared to baseline of the last several US elections. Also worth noting the even here, mentions about voting machines amount to less than 1/5 of the total things documented, and less directly/obviously significant to outcome.

Any court involvement, if it got past procedural stuff, would have to have used signature audits and compare discrepancy counts to expected discrepancy counts. Other than direct witness testimony (which is more limited), I can't think of another viable way to track the difference between legit vs stuffed ballots at large scale.

So when Cutlass claims there's "no evidence" it's an ignorant/factually incorrect statement. Whether there's sufficient evidence to a) overturn the election (very high bar even back in Nov., we'd probably have to see serious irregularity in the audit and do re-election...even that's off the table this late) or b) significantly change process in future elections (much lower bar) is another matter, but to say there's "none" is ridiculous and comes off as the cult-like mindset others are being accused of having.

As for "incitement", the same standard used for "incitement" wrt Trump's impeachment would see numerous officials pushing for his impeachment in jail. Legal incitement has strict standards, and nothing Trump said is even kind of close to them. Equating claims of stolen election to "incitement of terrorism and murder" is a joke standard, the kind of useful idiot cloth that would make Stalin blush. You could get nearly anybody with incitement for that, including Biden. He did say "we're going to fight like hell" after all, so if people riot vaguely in the same timeframe as any such statement he would be guilty of "incitement" by this nonsense standard.

Actual incitement tends to require specific actions of violence being encouraged, not someone saying to "march to X" (which has massive historical precedent as being not-incitement) or telling people to behave peacefully, which is the opposite of incitement. I'm not a fan of Facebook etc kicking Ron Paul off for violating standards it doesn't communicate to him either. That behavior is inconsistent with 230 immunity.

What does "government backing" mean here? You understand that Trump is part of the government, right?

As are the house, senate, and courts. And yes, Trump's hands are not clean when it comes to addressing how those companies operate, or when it comes to signing bullcrap that sends large amounts of money overseas to pay for gender studies in other countries etc. I consider Biden and his ilk somewhat worse than Trump, but that doesn't mean I'm a fan of Trump...who in many ways made his own bed with this stuff. But that still leaves us with bad process and a bad censorship problem, both legal and cultural.

The government grands broad and selective immunity to these organizations despite that they have long since left the realm of conduct for which the laws granting immunity were written. That did, in fact, continue to happen under Trump's watch.
 
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I said it before "legal incitement" will be different from "incitement triggering Impeachment". They're just different things. It's like pulling out the criminal law term for 'assault' and then describing how a civil 'assault' is a different thing. While it's the same words, they're different things. There's no doubt that Trump has incited the current unrest that resulted in violence, but that's using the term colloquially. And, opposite to that, Impeachment won't use (and isn't supposed to use) the criminal definition of Incitement.
 
As are the house, senate, and courts. And yes, Trump's hands are not clean when it comes to addressing how those companies operate, or when it comes to signing bullcrap that sends large amounts of money overseas to pay for gender studies in other countries etc.
Is your issue here with supporting foreign education or with gender studies?
I consider Biden and his ilk somewhat worse than Trump,

yea i'm sure we'll see attempted coups, mussolini quoting and mass pardons of embezzlers as well as dynastic installations of the highest government positions in the white house under biden yea

but that doesn't mean I'm a fan of Trump...who in many ways made his own bed with this stuff. But that still leaves us with bad process and a bad censorship problem, both legal and cultural.

So what's the "bad censorship" problem here exactly? If you can please explicitize. "Big Tech" should not be allowed to self-moderate?

The government grands broad and selective immunity to these organizations despite that they have long since left the realm of conduct for which the laws granting immunity were written. That did, in fact, continue to happen under Trump's watch.

And here we are again; I'm a bit confused by your wording. You want "Big Tech" to not have immunity from government control? You want government to define more than current what's allowed to be said on social media?
 
The American conservative hates liberalism so much that they side with Muslim conservatives. Because, for goodness sake, we don't want feminist principles in other nations.

Also, the OECD target for foreign aid is 0.7% of GDP. Some of that sausage will upset some people
 
The American conservative hates liberalism so much that they side with Muslim conservatives. Because, for goodness sake, we don't want feminist principles in other nations.


The American conservative hates liberalism so much they'll support a leader of a hostile foreign nation who is pointing a 1000 nuclear weapons at the US and has publicly said that he wants to weaken the US.

And that there defines the problem as a whole.
 
That TMiT is concerned about some test cases is actually useful. He's not a dumb person and he tries to be honest with himself. Chances are, he knows something we don't. It's too bad he's defending a terrible person. Hopefully agitation makes the less election harder to influence. Hiring someone who constantly lied about everything might have been the wrong move last cycle.


The point here is that anyone can raise an objection. It gets shot down, so raise it again, and claim it was not shot down. It gets shot down, so raise it again, and claim it was not shot down. It gets shot down, so raise it again, and claim it was not shot down. It gets shot down, so raise it again, and claim it was not shot down. It gets shot down, so raise it again, and claim it was not shot down. It gets shot down, so raise it again, and claim it was not shot down. . It gets shot down, so raise it again, and claim it was not shot down. It gets shot down, so raise it again, and claim it was not shot down. It gets shot down, so raise it again, and claim it was not shot down. It gets shot down, so raise it again, and claim it was not shot down. It gets shot down, so raise it again, and claim it was not shot down. It gets shot down, so raise it again, and claim it was not shot down. . It gets shot down, so raise it again, and claim it was not shot down. It gets shot down, so raise it again, and claim it was not shot down. It gets shot down, so raise it again, and claim it was not shot down. It gets shot down, so raise it again, and claim it was not shot down. It gets shot down, so raise it again, and claim it was not shot down. It gets shot down, so raise it again, and claim it was not shot down. . It gets shot down, so raise it again, and claim it was not shot down. It gets shot down, so raise it again, and claim it was not shot down. It gets shot down, so raise it again, and claim it was not shot down. It gets shot down, so raise it again, and claim it was not shot down. It gets shot down, so raise it again, and claim it was not shot down. It gets shot down, so raise it again, and claim it was not shot down. . It gets shot down, so raise it again, and claim it was not shot down. It gets shot down, so raise it again, and claim it was not shot down. It gets shot down, so raise it again, and claim it was not shot down. It gets shot down, so raise it again, and claim it was not shot down. It gets shot down, so raise it again, and claim it was not shot down. It gets shot down, so raise it again, and claim it was not shot down. . It gets shot down, so raise it again, and claim it was not shot down. It gets shot down, so raise it again, and claim it was not shot down. It gets shot down, so raise it again, and claim it was not shot down. It gets shot down, so raise it again, and claim it was not shot down. It gets shot down, so raise it again, and claim it was not shot down. It gets shot down, so raise it again, and claim it was not shot down. . It gets shot down, so raise it again, and claim it was not shot down. It gets shot down, so raise it again, and claim it was not shot down. It gets shot down, so raise it again, and claim it was not shot down. It gets shot down, so raise it again, and claim it was not shot down. It gets shot down, so raise it again, and claim it was not shot down. It gets shot down, so raise it again, and claim it was not shot down.


This is the strategy of climate change denial. This is the strategy of Hillary's Emails, of Bengazi, of Obama is a secret Muslim, a secret socialist. It is to accuse and accuse and accuse and accuse, all without being able to provide any real evidence. Just to make all those accusations lodge in people's heads.
 
Yeah I'm sure the person who believes BLM is the equivalent of an attempted coup and mass murder is arguing in good faith and definitely not trying to hide their own disdain for democracy and minorities
 
Good or factual speech does not override bad or false speech, it sends the listener to another source that will tell them what they want to hear.

A thorough audit will qualify as 'good speech' for millions of people, censorship will only add to their suspicions. What are they trying to hide would be the obvious question.

Yeah I'm sure the person who believes BLM is the equivalent of an attempted coup and mass murder is arguing in good faith and definitely not trying to hide their own disdain for democracy and minorities

BLM spent months destroying neighborhoods, it will take a while for these rioters to equal them
 
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A thorough audit will qualify as 'good speech' for millions of people, censorship will only add to their suspicions. What are they trying to hide would be the obvious question.

'Thorough', meaning a sampling of ballots in every district, everywhere? Or just say a random sampling from each state?
Trump was belly-aching about Cobb County.
Georgia then did a random audit on Cobb County.
15,000+ sample, 2 rejections (1 missing signature, 1 his wife signed instead of him).
So then the Trumpers just move on to "What about Fulton County". If done, they would just move on to another county, then another, then another.
Why not do an audit for every county, in every state next election, regardless of who wins? Bet we will never hear the Trumpers propose that, because they don't want some of their own votes to be thrown out, or have less things to point at and scream "Fraud!".

BLM spent months destroying neighborhoods, it will take a while for these rioters to equal them

"Oh, Antifa took over a police station, huh? Well we can 'one-up' them on that!"-Trump extremist

Perhaps in $ worth of property damage, but not on other aspects. (Jail/prison time, negative image in popular opinion, negative press coverage, etc.)
 
Good speech doesn't beat bad speech. You cannot change how people think; you can only expose them for their failures. Bad speech defeats itself, as we've seen from the deplatforming and numerous tears afterwards. And this is only the start of them losing. There's a lot of losing happening very soon. The most successful people against their ilk are ones that just let all the insults roll off them.

If you can't control yourself, no popular site will want you and you can be left ranting in some obscure site that will probably go offline in a year or two.

Intelligent people would know how to control themselves and respect a site's rules while maintaining their hateful agendas. They could realize their ideas are crap, but they probably won't. That's fine-- we need to know who the crazy people are anyways.

Incitement, of course, has never been acceptable.
 
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