Nazis in Ukraine
- Thread starter Berzerker
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Strong Reaction
Prince
Just a thought, in the American Military its documented and a real concern of military leadership that there is a substantial white supremacist population in the military. So in theory if American troops were involved we'd be sending over Nazi's to help Ukraine. Interesting.
https://www.militarytimes.com/news/...emism-up-again-in-poll-of-active-duty-troops/
https://www.militarytimes.com/news/...emism-up-again-in-poll-of-active-duty-troops/
Strong Reaction
Prince
Well facts Ukraine is a fascist country based on the evidence: one group called the Azov Battalion that numbers around 800 people in a country with ~43 million people, and photo of sneaky hot Ukrainian girl with a photo-shopped Nazi symbol on it, in fact were all fascist lets just admit it. Thats all the reason to invade a country. Certainly with such strong evidence had it been presented to the U.N. war vs. the Ukraine surely would be sanctioned.
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Verbose
Deity
These right wing nutters tend to thrive on chaos and societal breakdown. It provides them "freedoms" they otherwise would not enjoy – like lack of proper policing and the opportunity of engaging in violence against people who mostly can't fight back, for being less violent than they are.
Those kinds of situations attract this kind of people. You get them on the radical left too btw.
The first problem for Russia is that their president is someone who inhabits a world where the bottom line is who administers the beatings, and who gets beaten? He's spoken about these things often enough.
The second problem for Russia is that the situation in Donbass was originally set up in 2014 by the Russian government, by sending in people like this, supplied with money and guns, to find like-minded locals, in order to hamper the Ukranian state and government, as it were.
Then it's a problem for Ukraine that when this kind of violence erupts, the same kind of people with a credible "violence capital" tend to turn up to try to cash that into some level of public acceptance and/or approval, if possible, viz Azov.
The Ukranian problem in WWII was that the had a choice between the dictator who spoke German and the dictator who spoke Russian, and by and large they would go for the Russian speaking one. But this time around there is only the one dictator feller who speaks Russian, and the other alternative for them is very different, and speaks Ukranian.
Those kinds of situations attract this kind of people. You get them on the radical left too btw.
The first problem for Russia is that their president is someone who inhabits a world where the bottom line is who administers the beatings, and who gets beaten? He's spoken about these things often enough.
The second problem for Russia is that the situation in Donbass was originally set up in 2014 by the Russian government, by sending in people like this, supplied with money and guns, to find like-minded locals, in order to hamper the Ukranian state and government, as it were.
Then it's a problem for Ukraine that when this kind of violence erupts, the same kind of people with a credible "violence capital" tend to turn up to try to cash that into some level of public acceptance and/or approval, if possible, viz Azov.
The Ukranian problem in WWII was that the had a choice between the dictator who spoke German and the dictator who spoke Russian, and by and large they would go for the Russian speaking one. But this time around there is only the one dictator feller who speaks Russian, and the other alternative for them is very different, and speaks Ukranian.
This demonstrates why I disengaged last night. You're not interested in the idea that such a group could exist, and your bias is overriding your sense on the subject.
This is exactly why I reject your own "demagoguery" you see. Like El_Mac, I was highlighting not the tu quoque, but your insistence that Ukraine was unique in what it was doing.
This is important because it supports Putin's claims of "denazifying" a sovereign state with a Jewish head of state. You are, by your arguments, trying to craft a (false) reality that justifies that narrative.
And in turn, this actually makes it more difficult to do anything about actual Neo-Nazis in Ukraine (or anywhere).
You are of course in a different place to some other posters. You're Russian, and this "vs the West" tension is real. This is very different to Berzerker who made this tangent purely because of their ideological bias. I'm definitely not trying to lump you together. But there's a problem here regardless, and you're not listening to any argument, nomatter how reasonable, on the subject. Accusing El_Mac of demagoguery is big example of that. He's probably the last person in here you should be doing that to.
Snowygerry
Deity
Hm - it seems to have dimmed down a bit, no longer are insane demands made of NATO, they are now negotiating with Ukraine directly - which is an improvement I guess.
Verbose
Deity
First thing is to accept that Ukraine and Ukranians are really real, then that just maybe they're not Nazis, then finally that it's not the US or "the West" making it so. At some point finally that Russia can live just fine and prosper without making war to win or maintain any kind of empire – not least because it won't do anyone any good anyway.
Snowygerry
Deity
Well just weeks ago they were demanding the removal of all troops from Eastern Europe and a "return to 1997" and other such nonsense.
That seems to have disappeared.
That seems to have disappeared.
Akka
Moody old mage.
I guess they got a bloody enough nose to realize that they should probably tone down the rhetoric quite a bit.
Verbose
Deity
It might well go back on the table at first practical opportunity – with added vindictive-sauce for getting into trouble in Ukraine.
Which is also why it is important that Putin fails comprehensively there. Which yet remains to be seen.
Well said, nothing to add.
You just missed a tiny, little part of his post there
Ziggy Stardust
Absolutely Sane
Are you also surprised people are downplaying the existence of Nazis in the Ukraine as an excuse to invade a country?
If the aim is fighting Nazis, and there are Nazis in Russia, Poetin could fight Nazis without having to invade a country.
Also, the people dying in the Ukraine right now because of the Russian invasion, aren't Nazis.
Your argument was akin to "Putin is a bad guy, Nazis are bad guys therefore Putin is a Nazi"
Doesn't require refutation, really.
amadeus
Bishop of Bio-Dome
I didn’t take it as that, I took it as that Russia’s own neo-Nazi groups ought be cleaned up first before unilaterally deciding their smaller, weaker neighbor needed such “assistance.”
I think that at least in non-world power countries, which means most of everything in Europe (but not everything), it is in a way to be expected that in the countries which were allied to nazi Germany they would have (if this is tied to liberation) some national heroes who were in SS units or the next closest thing (eg Ustase in Croatia).
Maybe this is what is going on with the Azov legion in Ukraine. I don't know their history.
Maybe this is what is going on with the Azov legion in Ukraine. I don't know their history.
I am definitely not surprised by the response to the invasion. I haven't read to see if anyone is 'downplaying' anything involving the presence of Nazis. Just surprised by the lack of sacrificial offerings.
Well, except for cutting off university courses. But that's pretty small wrt everything
Ziggy Stardust
Absolutely Sane
But then the argument "there are Nazis in Russia" isn't a "no you" argument as you stated. It's debunking the ludicrous narrative Putin is invading because of those Nazis.
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