NES/IOT Merger Poll

[Ailedhoo]

Forgive me but is not a city a world in its own way? One has to not simply make a globe to make a world; we can go from a grand scale geopolitical world to a small scale world of a village. The evolutionary game that is NESLife is constructing a world. CityIOT sets through the world building of a city. WBG can fit as we conduct a process of worlding.

 

[Robert Can't]

Sometimes the world comes prebuilt?

 

[Luckymoose]

Forgive me but is not a city a world in its own way? One has to not simply make a globe to make a world; we can go from a grand scale geopolitical world to a small scale world of a village. The evolutionary game that is NESLife is constructing a world. CityIOT sets through the world building of a city. WBG can fit as we conduct a process of worlding.

Not all NESes deal with the geopolitical, either. There are plenty of examples of character driven, small scale storyist NESes. That sort of thing isn't what IOTers do. Labeling it as worldbuilding honestly corrupt the point of NESing. Often we don't do any worldbuilding during the play session, not any major work anyhow. We do more pre-NES construction than IOTers do. You guys do a lot of blank map and paint yourself in with no context, which is something NESing definitely doesn't do.

However, that isn't the point. The merger isn't an issue unless going forward IOTers get more say in the NES subforum based on their numbers. If it was the other way around you guys would have a heart attack over it. Preserving NESing in the face of a mass migration of a different community with different goals and styles of play is difficult. Our threads will be pushed to the bottom, our members will have less say, your people will control the vote on whatever future changes to the hobby may come (including changing the name to something that alienates a lot of players).

Does IOT do anything like End of Empires? No, absolutely not. How can we save that when you won't acknowledge our concerns over being the minority in our own home?

 

[hoplitejoe]

Our threads will be pushed to the bottom, our members will have less say, your people will control the vote on whatever future changes to the hobby may come (including changing the name to something that alienates a lot of players).

You should try out for a place as a UKIP councillor.

 

[Tyo]

Not all NESes deal with the geopolitical, either. There are plenty of examples of character driven, small scale storyist NESes. That sort of thing isn't what IOTers do.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=542800
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=541053

However, that isn't the point. The merger isn't an issue unless going forward IOTers get more say in the NES subforum based on their numbers. If it was the other way around you guys would have a heart attack over it. Preserving NESing in the face of a mass migration of a different community with different goals and styles of play is difficult. Our threads will be pushed to the bottom, our members will have less say, your people will control the vote on whatever future changes to the hobby may come (including changing the name to something that alienates a lot of players).

IOT has both always been smaller and always willing for a merge, so that kinda throws a wrench in that argument.

And that speaks as if IOT is a hive mind. We disagree with each other fairly often.

Does IOT do anything like End of Empires? No, absolutely not. How can we save that when you won't acknowledge our concerns over being the minority in our own home?

I don't know what that is so I don't really have anything to say about that

 

[Luckymoose]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=542800
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=541053

Neither of which look anything like what I had in mind. The players are characters, but it isn't a narrative driven storyist environment.

IOT has both always been smaller and always willing for a merge, so that kinda throws a wrench in that argument.

And that speaks as if IOT is a hive mind. We disagree with each other fairly often.

But now you are the larger community, as the vote shows, and you have initiative from CFC staff. So you're ignoring the current situation. Again, it isn't about the merger but our stake in it. Allowing a different community the power to make judgments and changes to ours is not in our best interest.

We never tried to do it to you guys.

I don't know what that is so I don't really have anything to say about that

Maybe do some research into the differences being discussed instead of firing off that we're the same. End of Empires has been around longer than IOT.

 

[NinjaCow64]

Neither of which look anything like what I had in mind. The players are characters, but it isn't a narrative driven storyist environment.

Narrative driven storyist environment...what does that even mean? Like, I've seen Jehoshua put forward less pretentious phrases.

But now you are the larger community, as the vote shows, and you have initiative from CFC staff. So you're ignoring the current situation. Again, it isn't about the merger but our stake in it. Allowing a different community the power to make judgments and changes to ours is not in our best interest.

We never tried to do it to you guys.

The moderators have said time and time again that they aren't going to merge the communities without complete approval. Stop making panics about things that aren't going to happen.

Maybe do some research into the differences being discussed instead of firing off that we're the same. End of Empires has been around longer than IOT.

And Days of our Lives have been around for longer. Although I'm sure EoE is a great game, length says nothing about quality.

 

[Tyo]

Neither of which look anything like what I had in mind. The players are characters, but it isn't a narrative driven storyist environment.

You'll have to explain yourself then.

But now you are the larger community, as the vote shows, and you have initiative from CFC staff. So you're ignoring the current situation. Again, it isn't about the merger but our stake in it. Allowing a different community the power to make judgments and changes to ours is not in our best interest.

We never tried to do it to you guys.

Honestly, what grave decision is there ever going to be where this is a legitimate issue? Like I said, IOT isn't a hive mind.

At the risk of saying something regrettable, you never wanted the merger for that to become a point of argument.

Maybe do some research into the differences being discussed instead of firing off that we're the same. End of Empires has been around longer than IOT.

While that is a fair point I have reasons for not doing that at the moment.

 

[Luckymoose]

Narrative driven storyist environment...what does that even mean? Like, I've seen Jehoshua put forward less pretentious phrases.

Collaborative, noncompetitive storytelling, through fiction writing, contained within a larger narrative whole as promoted through writing, rather than solely the dictation of orders.

If you don't know what that means, you've never had it.

And Days of our Lives have been around for longer. Although I'm sure EoE is a great game, length says nothing about quality.

When you won't take the time to acknowledge a NES that has been around longer than your entire hobby, what hope is there of respect to our views when the merger occurs? What research have you done into what NESers do? The variety, the depth, the quality, and sheer volume of content? If the quality produced on our side is ignored wholly then there is no place left in the community for said quality.

At the risk of saying something regrettable, you never wanted the merger for that to become a point of argument.

Yet, I am not a static human being with unchanging views, now am I? To say what I am when you've never taken the time to present a good argument to your side is shameful. I have not shutdown the merger proposal, nor will I try to. I simply want it noted that what we do and what you do isn't exactly the same and allowing your community the majority vote over ours won't do us any good in the long run. Not to mention, I've heard from a few IOTers that there is a good deal of hatred towards NESing as is, and those people don't want the merger anymore than some of our people.

 

[Thlayli]

I think that if IoTers are willing to accept the fact that NESers often demand a very high standard of narrative quality and realism in their games, and are willing to adapt to that, and realize that that kind of experience can be extremely rewarding, it would definitely make a merger more useful. That sort of thing requires research, accepting criticism, and a little more work than the average throwaway forum gamer might be willing to contribute, but the dividends are enormous.

I know a lot of skilled IoTers, like SK, and Robert Can't, and so on, whose posts make me feel okay about a possible merge. But then I see a lot of other people making posts riddled with typos and with a bare modicum of effort or forethought, and that makes me worry in turn about the future of the hobby.

I'm not worried about being elitist or exclusionary, but I think that having high standards and playing deep, involved games that may require pushing your intellectual talents to their limit in order to properly compete is something that may be new to some IoTers. For example, if someone tries to come into my game and post ridiculous nonsense, I'll be patient with them at first, but if they persist, they'll fail in a rather spectacular and embarrassing fashion, and they won't be able to rejoin.

I don't want to hurt IoT'ers feelings if they have that kind of experience in my thread.

 

[NinjaCow64]

Collaborative, noncompetitive storytelling, through fiction writing, contained within a larger narrative whole as promoted through writing, rather than solely the dictation of orders.

If you don't know what that means, you've never had it.

That's strange, that's exactly what I thought CityIOT was. Although admittedly CityIOT I was a better example.

When you won't take the time to acknowledge a NES that has been around longer than your entire hobby, what hope is there of respect to our views when the merger occurs? What research have you done into what NESers do? The variety, the depth, the quality, and sheer volume of content? If the quality produced on our side is ignored wholly then there is no place left in the community for said quality.

I have acknowledged it. I'm saying that it doesn't matter. Length =/= Quality. Prove to me that EoE has more quality than the rest of IOT.

Yet, I am not a static human being with unchanging views, now am I? To say what I am when you've never taken the time to present a good argument to your side is shameful. I have not shutdown the merger proposal, nor will I try to. I simply want it noted that what we do and what you do isn't exactly the same and allowing your community the majority vote over ours won't do us any good in the long run. Not to mention, I've heard from a few IOTers that there is a good deal of hatred towards NESing as is, and those people don't want the merger anymore than some of our people.

To be fair, most of the hatred going towards NES is because of you and your ilk going around acting like spoilt brats during these discussions. If, I don't know, you could be civil when these discussions come up then maybe the merger would have happened already. Maybe you have caused pointless drama in these threads because you don't want the merger to happen, if that was your goal you have been quite successful.

I think that if IoTers are willing to accept the fact that NESers often demand a very high standard of narrative quality and realism in their games, and are willing to adapt to that, and realize that that kind of experience can be extremely rewarding, it would definitely make a merger more useful. That sort of thing requires research, accepting criticism, and a little more work than the average throwaway forum gamer might be willing to contribute, but the dividends are enormous.

I know a lot of skilled IoTers, like SK, and Robert Can't, and so on, whose posts make me feel okay about a possible merge. But then I see a lot of other people making posts riddled with typos and with a bare modicum of effort or forethought, and that makes me worry in turn about the future of the hobby.

I'm not worried about being elitist or exclusionary, but I think that having high standards and playing deep, involved games that may require pushing your intellectual talents to their limit in order to properly compete is something that may be new to some IoTers. For example, if someone tries to come into my game and post ridiculous nonsense, I'll be patient with them at first, but if they persist, they'll fail in a rather spectacular and embarrassing fashion, and they won't be able to rejoin.

I don't want to hurt IoT'ers feelings if they have that kind of experience in my thread.

If you're going to talk about grammar and time spent on posts, please take the very short time to realise that "IoT" and "IoT'ers" aren't the correct spellings. It is "IOT" and "IOTers".

 

[Luckymoose]

I have acknowledged it. I'm saying that it doesn't matter. Length =/= Quality. Prove to me that EoE has more quality than the rest of IOT.

Here is an example. I'll let you be the judge if IOT has anything like this. It might take you a while. I'll wait.

 

[Tyo]

Er. I don't entirely agree with the way NinjaCow is putting things. Just thought to throw that out there.

Collaborative, noncompetitive storytelling, through fiction writing, contained within a larger narrative whole as promoted through writing, rather than solely the dictation of orders.

If you don't know what that means, you've never had it.

I fail to see how my two examples do not fulfill this, at least to a large degree.

When you won't take the time to acknowledge a NES that has been around longer than your entire hobby, what hope is there of respect to our views when the merger occurs? What research have you done into what NESers do? The variety, the depth, the quality, and sheer volume of content? If the quality produced on our side is ignored wholly then there is no place left in the community for said quality.

I'm legitimately unsure what you're trying to say. That I do not have the time at present to go look at a popular game/story does not mean that I do not recognize it or its quality - just that I have not looked at it personally yet.

Yet, I am not a static human being with unchanging views, now am I? To say what I am when you've never taken the time to present a good argument to your side is shameful. I have not shutdown the merger proposal, nor will I try to. I simply want it noted that what we do and what you do isn't exactly the same and allowing your community the majority vote over ours won't do us any good in the long run. Not to mention, I've heard from a few IOTers that there is a good deal of hatred towards NESing as is, and those people don't want the merger anymore than some of our people.

That you have changing views doesn't matter in this context. You say NES never tried to install tyranny of majority over IOT, I say NES was never willing to take it that far. That is all.

That some IOTers don't want a merge is just proof of my insistence we are not a hive mind. I honestly can't imagine anything the scary "IOTer Majority" would try to force on NESers. The only thing I can possibly think of is the name of the prospective subforum which, like this poll, is said to be taken by overwhelming support.

I think that if IoTers are willing to accept the fact that NESers often demand a very high standard of narrative quality and realism in their games, and are willing to adapt to that, and realize that that kind of experience can be extremely rewarding, it would definitely make a merger more useful. That sort of thing requires research, accepting criticism, and a little more work than the average throwaway forum gamer might be willing to contribute, but the dividends are enormous.

I know a lot of skilled IoTers, like SK, and Robert Can't, and so on, whose posts make me feel okay about a possible merge. But then I see a lot of other people making posts riddled with typos and with a bare modicum of effort or forethought, and that makes me worry in turn about the future of the hobby.

I'm not worried about being elitist or exclusionary, but I think that having high standards and playing deep, involved games that may require pushing your intellectual talents to their limit in order to properly compete is something that may be new to some IoTers. For example, if someone tries to come into my game and post ridiculous nonsense, I'll be patient with them at first, but if they persist, they'll fail in a rather spectacular and embarrassing fashion, and they won't be able to rejoin.

I don't want to hurt IoT'ers feelings if they have that kind of experience in my thread.

Believe it or not, similar things have happened in IOTs too. No riots took place.

 

[Thlayli]

If you're going to talk about grammar and time spent on posts, please take the very short time to realise that "IoT" and "IoT'ers" aren't the correct spellings. It is "IOT" and "IOTers".

Technically it's IO, since Offtopicum is one word. You just imitated NES, like Aulë imitating the design of Eru when the Dwarves were first crafted.

 

[W|M]

I think that if IoTers are willing to accept the fact that NESers often demand a very high standard of narrative quality and realism in their games, and are willing to adapt to that, and realize that that kind of experience can be extremely rewarding, it would definitely make a merger more useful. That sort of thing requires research, accepting criticism, and a little more work than the average throwaway forum gamer might be willing to contribute, but the dividends are enormous.

I know a lot of skilled IoTers, like SK, and Robert Can't, and so on, whose posts make me feel okay about a possible merge. But then I see a lot of other people making posts riddled with typos and with a bare modicum of effort or forethought, and that makes me worry in turn about the future of the hobby.

I'm not worried about being elitist or exclusionary, but I think that having high standards and playing deep, involved games that may require pushing your intellectual talents to their limit in order to properly compete is something that may be new to some IoTers. For example, if someone tries to come into my game and post ridiculous nonsense, I'll be patient with them at first, but if they persist, they'll fail in a rather spectacular and embarrassing fashion, and they won't be able to rejoin.

I don't want to hurt IoT'ers feelings if they have that kind of experience in my thread.

Most experienced IOTers can make highly detailed posts full of effort, though not always in the form of the massive blocks of roleplay that NES uses. NESers as a whole are far more experienced in writing and world-building than IOTers, but that doesn't mean IOTers don't try. Orders in Scarlet King's IOTs, for example, took large amounts of planning, effort, clarification from the GM about unfamiliar economic concepts, and diplomacy. Although most of it was hidden, you could see a world being constantly changed every turn through the many, many hidden variables, and had the GM not screwed up the military system, it would likely have continued for a fairly long time. If ridiculous nonsense is posted in an IOT, most GMs will put a stop to it, unless the IOT in question is intentionally ridiculous. You won't see Batmanistans or Equestrias in serious IOTs any more than you'll see them in serious NESes.

That's strange, that's exactly what I thought CityIOT was. Although admittedly CityIOT I was a better example.

CityIOT I also crashed and literally burned after the first few pages of content.

What lucky described is closer to CivO's AC set in the Adirondacks.

To be fair, most of the hatred going towards NES is because of you and your ilk going around acting like spoilt brats during these discussions. If, I don't know, you could be civil when these discussions come up then maybe the merger would have happened already. Maybe you have caused pointless drama in these threads because you don't want the merger to happen, if that was your goal you have been quite successful.

Some IOTers are acting more like spoilt brats than NESers. What do you mean by pointless drama?

 

[NinjaCow64]

I'm sorry, I spoke rashly. I was angry about a bunch of different things and IOT-NES was one of them and it was also the most easily accessible. So I'm sorry, my posts have done nothing but cause trouble.

Technically it's IO, since Offtopicum is one word. You just imitated NES, like Aulë imitating the design of Eru when the Dwarves were first crafted.

Comments like that are really condescending though.

 

[Thlayli]

I'm just messing with you man. It's a joke you know.

 

[SamSniped]

I'm just messing with you man. It's a joke you know.

I believe he meant the part about questioning the quality of IOTers' RP and work. Not speaking for NC here, but this -

I think that if IoTers are willing to accept the fact that NESers often demand a very high standard of narrative quality and realism in their games, and are willing to adapt to that, and realize that that kind of experience can be extremely rewarding, it would definitely make a merger more useful.

- has a pretty condescending ring to it IMO.

 

[Double A]

The crux of the matter is that IoT and IO look really, really dumb or like we're really excited about one of Jupiter's moons and/or Greek mythology, respectively.

 

[erez87]

I want to be clear, I don't think NESing is better than IOT, but different. I looked at one or two IOT's and they didn't seem as fun for me as a NES would be. What I do say is that if IOT and NES merge, I think NESes will just become more IOT like and dissappear.