NES/IOT Merger Poll

[Thlayli]

Okay, talking about the merge itself.

I'm very opposed to the idea of voting on a merge before the details of the merge are known. This is why I voted no. Why? Because a lot of people may be in favor of the vague idea of a merge, only to realize that the specific details of a merge turn them off.

If it were up to me, the entire discussion should be tabled, the relevant community leaders should go take a few weeks to create an actual merger plan, including a new forum title and description, and then we can reconvene to vote on a plan rather than a vague idea. Or, preferably, a whole array of plan options, with "keep things as they are" one of the options.

Another reason that the Frontier group is more resistant to this merge is because they feel like they're being driven out of the forum they once called home. The appointment of EQ (a NESer) as a moderator was a good first step, but EQ and a lot of the people who left for the Frontier were never close, and there are longstanding concerns from the "Storyist" crowd that they have little to no representation in NES.

Now, the appointment of thomas and myself to the consultation social group, again, was a fairly good concession, which leads me to believe that EQ at least is interested in keeping the community together and not playing identity politics. I respect EQ and I think he's trying his best to make this all work.

Buuuut, the problem of under-representation, the feeling that the "Exiled" NESers don't have anyone from among their number to "protect" them from the mods, is a very coherent concern. You might scoff at this concern, but we know there are powerful people in CFC who have it out for NESing. We won't name names, but they're there.

This is the political undertone to the fear and resistance from many NESers towards this merge, the fear that deep down it is not a merge but an annexation, an annihilation of the NESer identity.

I hate to beat this drum again, but you should just appoint a new moderator for the combined forum from the Frontier group (NK, or Iggy, or thomas, or ChiefDesigner, there are lots of qualified, well-educated choices) and that would largely solve this problem. If you're worried about making the size of the staff too large, I'm sure Birdjaguar would be willing to surrender his position, since for all intents and purposes he is retired in his active enforcement duties.

Making the Frontier group stakeholders in the continued success of the site rather than hated exiles to be shunned would reduce their resistance to changes.

 

[sophie]

Okay, talking about the merge itself.

I'm very opposed to the idea of voting on a merge before the details of the merge are known. This is why I voted no. Why? Because a lot of people may be in favor of the vague idea of a merge, only to realize that the specific details of a merge turn them off.

If it were up to me, the entire discussion should be tabled, the relevant community leaders should go take a few weeks to create an actual merger plan, including a new forum title and description, and then we can reconvene to vote on a plan rather than a vague idea. Or, preferably, a whole array of plan options, with "keep things as they are" one of the options.

This. A thousand times this. When you don't know the specifics of what's going to happen beyond a vague "something will happen" then you're forced to vote on what you expect is going to happen given the parties in charge of making that thing happen. Which is why this thread devolved partially into a referendum on moderators. Because we don't know what the merger is going to look like we have to take it on faith that BSmith and EQ are going to listen to, and respect NESer (who are in the minority in this merger) and Frontier NESer interests/concerns. It'd be easier to vote on this if we actually knew what we were voting on.

 

[EQandcivfanatic]

As I have explained and explained and explained, there would be a lot of work put into a merger and the details regarding it, and the fact is, if there is no support for a merger, then there is no point to that work. I have a life outside of NESing, and little interest in wasting my time working out a detailed proposal all by myself or arguing with people about something that the majority don't want at all. When it comes time to discuss details of merging, should it be approved, there will be ample time and conversation about every little thing for nitpickers to go over. Obviously, not everyone in the whole community will be happy with any result. Every step of the way will be determined by a majority of people who choose to participate, with me and BSmith stepping in only when needed. That's all that can be promised for now, until the polling above is completed.

 

[sophie]

As I have explained and explained and explained, there would be a lot of work put into a merger and the details regarding it, and the fact is, if there is no support for a merger, then there is no point to that work. I have a life outside of NESing, and little interest in wasting my time working out a detailed proposal all by myself or arguing with people about something that the majority don't want at all. When it comes time to discuss details of merging, should it be approved, there will be ample time and conversation about every little thing for nitpickers to go over. Obviously, not everyone in the whole community will be happy with any result. Every step of the way will be determined by a majority of people who choose to participate, with me and BSmith stepping in only when needed. That's all that can be promised for now, until the polling above is completed.

And this is precisely why I voted no in the poll as it currently exists.

 

[christos200]

No offense, but IOTs and NES are just forum games. No need to turn this into a "political" debate. Reading this thread gave me the impression I was reading what American revolutionaries would have said to the British (and the reverse).

But this is not an American revolution. This is a discussion about forum games. So I do not see how "representation" or "political undertones" are needed. You take things far too seriously for an internet game.

 

[J.K. Stockholme]

Subbing.

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

That leaves a final group of posters: those who used to participate, but have chosen to leave and as yet have not come back because they are upset with how they feel they have been treated. With their departure they made a statement that they do not have an interest in participating in the future of the CFC community. They even went so far as to open up a competing site to draw additional players away from CFC. There is a very easy case to be made that they should not have any say in whether or not the two forums are merged. If they want to be influential at CFC, they need to get their asses back here and let everyone benefit from their game playing expertise and experience.

The phrasing in the bolded part and perhaps other bits could give the connotation that this is somehow viewed as an insult to CFC. This would be incorrect. It is a big internet. It is perfectly rational and unblameworthy to seek an environment to pursue your activities that better suits you. It is just fine to extoll the virtues of your chosen utopia (within the rules governing advertising and linking other sites) to CFC members*. If a player is happier there, we are happier to have less unhappiness here.

*NES at the Frontier was allowed the privileged status of "Civ Related Site" which allows more linkage than otherwise, and a thread in the Civ Related Sites Sub Forum, and even a custom allowance to link to their games in posts in a thread in the NES Sub Forum here, something rare outside the inter-site Civ games.

 

[EQandcivfanatic]

*NES at the Frontier was allowed the privileged status of "Civ Related Site" which allows more linkage than otherwise, and a thread in the Civ Related Sites Sub Forum, and even a custom allowance to link to their games in posts in a thread in the NES Sub Forum here, something rare outside the inter-site Civ games.

I am going to also add here that these were not allowed for the previous two times that NESers left the site en masse (despite requests) after a dispute with the moderation staff. Strategic Command Center and (insert name of the 2003 attempted site here, cause I can't remember it) did not get any of the consideration or support that the Frontier has had.

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

I am unaware of the the prior situations. Have a look at their current circumstances and message me if it were be a service to our members to allow direct links to the other sites in our sub fora.

 

[Robert Can't]

The differences are so minimal these days - just merge them

 

[EQandcivfanatic]

I am unaware of the the prior situations. Have a look at their current circumstances and message me if it were be a service to our members to allow direct links to the other sites in our sub fora.

Don't worry about it, both have been defunct for years. Speaking as one of the people who went with the Strategic Command Center exodus however, I can pretty safely say that we were not extended anywhere close to the same level of treatment as the current situation.

 

[Sonereal]

No offense, but IOTs and NES are just forum games. No need to turn this into a "political" debate. Reading this thread gave me the impression I was reading what American revolutionaries would have said to the British (and the reverse).

But this is not an American revolution. This is a discussion about forum games. So I do not see how "representation" or "political undertones" are needed. You take things far too seriously for an internet game.

/u/changetip 200 bits

 

[Luckymoose]

The phrasing in the bolded part and perhaps other bits could give the connotation that this is somehow viewed as an insult to CFC.

And birdjaguar has been told he was wrong about that, too. We aren't draining people. We're a community that exists outside URLs. We want what is best for all of us, not just segregated bits of us. Frontier wasn't even founded by us, it has been around as long or longer than CFC. They just welcomed our community when CFC decided it no longer did.

 

[NinjaCow64]

Okay, talking about the merge itself.

I'm very opposed to the idea of voting on a merge before the details of the merge are known. This is why I voted no. Why? Because a lot of people may be in favor of the vague idea of a merge, only to realize that the specific details of a merge turn them off.

If it were up to me, the entire discussion should be tabled, the relevant community leaders should go take a few weeks to create an actual merger plan, including a new forum title and description, and then we can reconvene to vote on a plan rather than a vague idea. Or, preferably, a whole array of plan options, with "keep things as they are" one of the options.

Another reason that the Frontier group is more resistant to this merge is because they feel like they're being driven out of the forum they once called home. The appointment of EQ (a NESer) as a moderator was a good first step, but EQ and a lot of the people who left for the Frontier were never close, and there are longstanding concerns from the "Storyist" crowd that they have little to no representation in NES.

Now, the appointment of thomas and myself to the consultation social group, again, was a fairly good concession, which leads me to believe that EQ at least is interested in keeping the community together and not playing identity politics. I respect EQ and I think he's trying his best to make this all work.

Buuuut, the problem of under-representation, the feeling that the "Exiled" NESers don't have anyone from among their number to "protect" them from the mods, is a very coherent concern. You might scoff at this concern, but we know there are powerful people in CFC who have it out for NESing. We won't name names, but they're there.

This is the political undertone to the fear and resistance from many NESers towards this merge, the fear that deep down it is not a merge but an annexation, an annihilation of the NESer identity.

I hate to beat this drum again, but you should just appoint a new moderator for the combined forum from the Frontier group (NK, or Iggy, or thomas, or ChiefDesigner, there are lots of qualified, well-educated choices) and that would largely solve this problem. If you're worried about making the size of the staff too large, I'm sure Birdjaguar would be willing to surrender his position, since for all intents and purposes he is retired in his active enforcement duties.

Making the Frontier group stakeholders in the continued success of the site rather than hated exiles to be shunned would reduce their resistance to changes.

I really don't think another moderator is going to help matters. Is there really anyone in NES that you would be 100% happy with as a moderator?

No offense, but IOTs and NES are just forum games. No need to turn this into a "political" debate. Reading this thread gave me the impression I was reading what American revolutionaries would have said to the British (and the reverse).

But this is not an American revolution. This is a discussion about forum games. So I do not see how "representation" or "political undertones" are needed. You take things far too seriously for an internet game.

If there were upvotes on this forum then this would get all of them.

 

[North King]

Yep, definitely take things too seriously. Never mind the hours that are sunk into the hobby -- which, judging by minimum wage, would make my investment in the forum worth somewhere in the realm of tens of thousands of dollars -- it's ultimately not your prerogative what I should take seriously and what I shouldn't.

 

[Zack]

So if the admins were asking to obliterate the NES and IOT forums and delete all threads from existence, that would be okay? You wouldn't protest or get mad? It's just a silly forum game, right?

edit: xpost

 

[Sonereal]

So if the admins were asking to obliterate the NES and IOT forums and delete all threads from existence, that would be okay? You wouldn't protest or get mad? It's just a silly forum game, right?

edit: xpost

Hyperbole is a tad useless.

 

[Luckymoose]

Yep, definitely take things too seriously. Never mind the hours that are sunk into the hobby -- which, judging by minimum wage, would make my investment in the forum worth somewhere in the realm of tens of thousands of dollars -- it's ultimately not your prerogative what I should take seriously and what I shouldn't.

Exactly. I don't know how much time these other people have, but the long term, serious hobbyists among us have tremendous time and social investment in this. And by tremendous I mean literally years, some of us for a decade plus.

Why should we? We would just go to the Frontier or AH.com's Shared Worlds.

Because our forum contains hundreds of thousands of posts, in tens of millions of words over years of work and creative content production that we don't want lost?

Also, sneaky ninja edit there.

 

[Sonereal]

Because our forum contains hundreds of thousands of posts, in tens of millions of words over years of work and creative content production that we don't want lost?

This forum won't last forever. I strongly suggest you find a way to archive your work.

Edit: I would be extremely shock if you aren't archiving threads that you want to keep forever actually.

Also, sneaky ninja edit there.

About 30% of my posts are ninja edits.

 

[KaiserElectric]

You're arguing against something that isn't going to happen. NES and IOT are not getting removed, they are just getting merged. I understand that you're dedicated to the games that you create, but the idea of "NES getting deleted forever" is a non-issue.

And if you feel so strongly about preserving what you've worked so hard to accomplish, why not create an off-site archive? IOT has one, it's easy to make and manage.