NES/IOT Merger Poll

[Thlayli]

The crux of the matter is that IoT and IO look really, really dumb or like we're really excited about one of Jupiter's moons and/or Greek mythology, respectively.

Well, let's be honest with ourselves, IOts started out as glorified province-painting boardgames with no realism to them at all. There's relevance to my critique that certainly bears responding to. I'm sorry about your acronym, but IOT isn't grammatically correct either.

And that's faaaar from the crux of the matter.

This is what we do, and it's different from what you do. Or at least, what you have done in the past.

Very, very different. You'll notice a higher degree of complexity and generally speaking, effort required to post in our games. We work VERY, VERY HARD on our games, which is why as a community, we're extremely overprotective of our independence, and sensitive to mod interference. We aren't as interested in silliness. We like playing games, yes, and we like having fun, but we are interested in sophisticated games that mirror realistic scenarios, and in deep roleplaying that truly evokes the core of human behavior. We work hard, and we don't compromise, and we don't play for the lulz.

There is some crossover of course, the more time a given IOTer spends in our forum, the more sophisticated their IOTs tend to get. And I have definitely noticed a trend towards increasing sophistication and overall improvement. But if you merge with us, you have to realize that some of us will be openly disdainful of the kinds of unserious games some of you have chosen to run thusfar. I personally won't play in games like that; I respect your right to run them, but me, and the crowd I play with, like something a little bit more challenging. I hope that means we can still get along.

 

[thomas.berubeg]

Well, let's be honest with ourselves, IOts started out as glorified province-painting boardgames with no realism to them at all.

To be fair, Thy, That's how NES was at it's start too...

 

[thomas.berubeg]

Sorry for the Double post, but I would just like to add this:

I propose that, when/if the merger happens, the Inclusion Rule is made more flexible. If a Mod desires a serious atmosphere to their game, they should be allowed to prevent a nation of Blond, alien, busty valkyries who reproduce via budding.

 

[Tyo]

I want to be clear, I don't think NESing is better than IOT, but different. I looked at one or two IOT's and they didn't seem as fun for me as a NES would be. What I do say is that if IOT and NES merge, I think NESes will just become more IOT like and dissappear.

I do understand that NESes - as far as I've seen - tend to be more serious than IOTs, but I honestly don't see much in the way of their *actual* differences. Rules very widely from IOT to IOT, and I'm sure the same can be said for NES. So, what I'm going to ask is what *tangible* difference is there, aside from the atmosphere? They both cover a wide array of game types, so that's not it. They both range widely in how stat or story-intensive they are, so that's not it. I'm just not seeing it.


I ask this because looking at the popular NES at the moment, EQ's Botwawki, I fail to see how it wouldn't fit in IOT. Conversely, I don't *think* there's an IOT with maybe one exception that wouldn't fit into NES had an NES regular brought it up.



Regarding the discussion about the grammatical correctness of IOT or whatever, I don't really think that matters.

Sorry for the Double post, but I would just like to add this:

I propose that, when/if the merger happens, the Inclusion Rule is made more flexible. If a Mod desires a serious atmosphere to their game, they should be allowed to prevent a nation of Blond, alien, busty valkyries who reproduce via budding.

I mean, IOTs already do something like that. Sure there are the silly IOTs where stuff like that's allowed, but at the same time there are plenty of games that demand a certain level of seriousness in regard to country/character/whatever creation. In fact, I'd argue the majority of newer IOTs fit that metric.

 

[Tyo]

Well, let's be honest with ourselves, IOts started out as glorified province-painting boardgames with no realism to them at all. There's relevance to my critique that certainly bears responding to. I'm sorry about your acronym, but IOT isn't grammatically correct either.

And that's faaaar from the crux of the matter.

This is what we do, and it's different from what you do.

Very, very different. You'll notice a higher degree of complexity and generally speaking, effort required to post. We aren't as interested in silliness. We like playing games, yes, and we like having fun, but we are interested in sophisticated games that mirror realistic scenarios, and in deep roleplaying that truly evokes the core of human behavior. We work hard, and we don't compromise, and we don't play for the lulz.

There is some crossover of course, the more time a given IOTer spends in our forum, the more sophisticated their IOTs tend to get. But if you merge with us, you have to realize that some of us will be openly disdainful of the kinds of unserious games you've chosen to run thusfar. I personally won't play in games like that; I respect your right to run them, but me, and the crowd I play with, like something a little bit more challenging. I hope that means we can still get along.

Okay, I know it's easy to cherrypick, but come on. You took incredibly popular and successful NESes from years ago and put them to three relatively recent and intentionally lax IOTs. There have been plenty of attempted and successful complex IOTs and that you decided not to look for them is not reason enough to disregard IOT as *oh so simple and mundane*]

edit: I also apologize for the double-post.

x2: Here are some nice examples.

These are games that expect seriousness and at least two of them have *very* intensive mechanics, the crown jewel here being Interna Universo which had *over twelve excel spreadsheets* with hundreds of calculations on each. And unlike your cherrypicks, this stuff happened within the *last month.*

 

[Thlayli]

I'm not disregarding IOTs as simple and mundane, but the fact of the matter is that there's definitely a stronger strain of your community that likes to play simple games. Kashmir and other such threads are a good step forward, which is why I'm not universally opposed to a merger. Just offering a warning that if there's a merge, there will be a reaction towards those kinds of silly, unrealistic games.

(I edited my post above to qualify my language a bit more, I don't want to seem too harsh.)

 

[Tyo]

Indeed, you came off as very abrasive. Anyways, my point is that IOT has the capability to play complex and intensive games but at the same time, IOT also likes to have fun they don't feel obligated to be *very dedicated* for. In the same light as how someone might have Victoria 2 and Tropico within the same steam library.

(I do)

I mean, it's not as if those who want serious games have to look at the less serious ones. I personally haven't even looked inside the IdIOT thread at all. I honestly *like* more serious games. But I'm not mad or feel contempt that they are doing stupid crap. It's contained within that thread and it's all in good fun, which is what we're all here for.

 

[thomas.berubeg]

I'm not disregarding IOTs as simple and mundane, but the fact of the matter is that there's definitely a stronger strain of your community that likes to play simple games. Kashmir and other such threads are a good step forward, which is why I'm not universally opposed to a merger. Just offering a warning that if there's a merge, there will be a reaction towards those kinds of silly, unrealistic games.

(I edited my post above to qualify my language a bit more, I don't want to seem too harsh.)

I'd like to point to Terrance's sillyNES. It was not serious in the least, but we cannot deny that Terrance was a productive and valued member of the community.

 

[Thlayli]

I do recognize that point Tyo, and I've repeatedly made it. Others have also repeatedly made the point that IOT has journeyed on the same developmental timeline that the NES forum has, just that it started at a later date. I just want to protect the nigh-legendary quality that our forum has had in the past with some of its greatest work, and I hope, at least, that we can meet or surpass that. I really like a lot of people from your forum and I have a really high opinion of them, so I think a merger could work. Even though we can't agree on a name even now.

I just would be less comfortable if the forum got filled with throwaway threads and crowded out the more quality stuff. Hopefully that doesn't happen.

 

[Luckymoose]

Okay, I know it's easy to cherrypick, but come on. You took incredibly popular and successful NESes from years ago and put them to three relatively recent and intentionally lax IOTs. There have been plenty of attempted and successful complex IOTs and that you decided not to look for them is not reason enough to disregard IOT as *oh so simple and mundane*]

edit: I also apologize for the double-post.

x2: Here are some nice examples.

These are games that expect seriousness and at least two of them have *very* intensive mechanics, the crown jewel here being Interna Universo which had *over twelve excel spreadsheets* with hundreds of calculations on each. And unlike your cherrypicks, this stuff happened within the *last month.*

He's not cherrypicking, really. That's just a wide range of what we do. And we do it regularly. End of Empires isn't from years ago, either, it's been running for coming on seven years. Hell, last summer alone four players (myself included) wrote 110k words in collaborative stories for it. That's a novel's length. I just don't see something comparable on your list. I see a lot of bragging on spreadsheets and neat little province maps, but there's nothing there that screams long term, committed narrative depth and player produce content of a high quality. I don't care for numbers and spreadsheets, that's lame, man. I want emotion, passion, and cooperation. I don't want a game where the content is silly gifs or province maps where the setting has no collective context or canon.

BOTWAWKI, for what it is worth, is not the standard of NESing and is far from what you'd consider a mainline NES. It is very niche, and many of the better players in our community don't participate in it because of that. It is EQ's baby, and that's fine, but I wouldn't base all NESing off of it, let alone EQ's style. He doesn't have the same narrative push that I do, and a large subset of NESers do.

Cherry picking based on time frame and the amount of spreadsheets is an immature view on the hobby. One which BSmith and the others tried to push down as who counts as a member, in this very thread. We've had a rough time lately, with the crackdown by staff here and going through the efforts to preserve ourselves elsewhere, and our community is only now recovering with the coming new NESes. If Thlayli or Azale succeed in running theirs, it'll be some fresh material that no IOT currently running would be anything like.

Your own IOT, New Age, claims to be a roleplaying, character driven thing but I just don't see it. Two pages, and no content. That's not very reassuring. You can ignore my views on this, but I know a thing or two about it. The type of NESer I am leads me to write vast amounts of stories, in arcs, with narrative depth and collaboration with my coplayers. I see nothing about your IOT that would make me join it. And that's okay, but to say yours is the same as what I or others wants is just embarrassingly narrowminded when you haven't taken the time to even look at what we're presenting.

You have not met the level we enjoy playing on. You might one day, if you want to develop down the road the rest of us spent years towards. But you might not. What we produce isn't the same thing, and that doesn't mean our forums can't be merged. What it does mean is that our two groups should not have power over the other in any form, especially when it comes to definitions of what we do, sticky threads, names, moderation staff, etc.

You have no right to dictate or take from us what is ours because EQ said it was okay. EQ doesn't speak for me, or Thlayli, or North King, or Iggy, or Daftpanzer, or Azale, or any of the other extraordinarily talented, long term producers of content in this community. I don't see many IOTers, EQ, or BSmith taking part in the things that would be considered a good, deep NES experience. That concerns me for our future, and for the types of players being pulled in. If all they see and expect is the content IOT produces, there won't be a home for NESing. Any merger needs to be extremely careful not to waterdown and hide our side of it behind your majority.

 

[BSmith1068]

Sorry for the Double post, but I would just like to add this:

I propose that, when/if the merger happens, the Inclusion Rule is made more flexible. If a Mod desires a serious atmosphere to their game, they should be allowed to prevent a nation of Blond, alien, busty valkyries who reproduce via budding.

No need to change the inclusively rule as it already allows for this kind of discrimination. As a GM you have the freedom to run the game as you want it run. What you can't do is preemptively exclude someone based on past history or perception of the player. If they are disruptive or don't follow the game rules then they can be excluded. With EQ and I fully in the loop we can enforce that as well.

Cherry picking based on time frame and the amount of spreadsheets is an immature view on the hobby. One which BSmith and the others tried to push down as who counts as a member, in this very thread.

I know you don't like me. I get that and you are entitled to your own opinion. What you are not entitled to is your own facts. I have very clearly been in support of counting everyone and anyone that has been a member of either IOT or NES at any time. Full stop.

 

[SamSniped]

He's not cherrypicking, really. That's just a wide range of what we do. And we do it regularly. End of Empires isn't from years ago, either, it's been running for coming on seven years. Hell, last summer alone four players (myself included) wrote 110k words in collaborative stories for it. That's a novel's length. I just don't see something comparable on your list. I see a lot of bragging on spreadsheets and neat little province maps, but there's nothing there that screams long term, committed narrative depth and player produce content of a high quality. I don't care for numbers and spreadsheets, that's lame, man. I want emotion, passion, and cooperation. I don't want a game where the content is silly gifs or province maps where the setting has no collective context or canon.

I agree, NES has higher quality. But come on. Thlayli intentionally pointed out only a part of the whole. I'm pretty damn sure there's high-quality IOTs with a damn good storyline. Not that I've played in them or anything, unlike you, who seems to know everything about IOT, right? Yes, EoE is the best NES or forum game I've ever seen here. But that doesn't mean we're incompetent. In fact, I bet with NESers playing an IOT, you would see the quality and length of some of the most popular NESes. And some people need a break from seriousness. Don't want it? Then don't goddamn look at it. It won't be forced upon your eyes.

Your own IOT, New Age, claims to be a roleplaying, character driven thing but I just don't see it. Two pages, and no content. That's not very reassuring.

Don't think it started yet.

You have not met the level we enjoy playing on. You might one day, if you want to develop down the road the rest of us spent years towards. But you might not. What we produce isn't the same thing, and that doesn't mean our forums can't be merged. What it does mean is that our two groups should not have power over the other in any form, especially when it comes to definitions of what we do, sticky threads, names, moderation staff, etc.

I completely agree in regard to the fact that one shouldn't have power over the other, but you do know you can say it without being condescending and insulting the intelligence or skill level of IOTers first, right? We'd be more likely to listen and work together if we weren't treated like little kids who aren't allowed to play with the adults. I'd appreciate it, at least.

 

[christos200]

I personally see nothing wrong in more simple forum games. Does every game need to be novel like and have the most excellent quality? Sometimes, simpler games too can offer fun. For example, IOT XIV was not complex at all and yet it was a great experience and all of it's players had great fun.

And there have been complex IOT's too. Look at Imperium Offtopicum: Valiant Nations. Sure, it is not as complex as some NESes, but it is not ridiculously simple either.

I do not see why IOT's should become exactly like NES. There is no need for every game to be of top quality or be like EoE.

 

[BSmith1068]

Are the following definitions of IOT or of NES?

A game on a forum with (a) human players, (b) orders, (c) turns, (d) updates, (e) rules, and (f) a mod; and sometimes with player-written stories and often with stats; there being occasional exceptions to most of these elements.

____ is a turn-based narrative roleplaying forum game.

 

[North King]

Well, on the other forum, we struggled mightily with a definition of NESing, so I imagine there'll be disagreement on this front.

 

[EQandcivfanatic]

Well, on the other forum, we struggled mightily with a definition of NESing, so I imagine there'll be disagreement on this front.

Looking over the past 13 years of NESing shows that there's rarely consensus on this front anyways, despite the issue coming up typically two or three times a year. I spent the morning going back and looking through old threads, and never once have we ever reached any sort of agreement on that.

 

[Luckymoose]

No need to change the inclusively rule as it already allows for this kind of discrimination. As a GM you have the freedom to run the game as you want it run. What you can't do is preemptively exclude someone based on past history or perception of the player. If they are disruptive or don't follow the game rules then they can be excluded. With EQ and I fully in the loop we can enforce that as well.

That's like saying I can't exclude someone from an important positions because I know they are incompetent. That's not going to help games maintain quality if we have to let people take things we know they can't handle long enough to prove they can't handle it. This isn't congress.

I know you don't like me. I get that and you are entitled to your own opinion. What you are not entitled to is your own facts. I have very clearly been in support of counting everyone and anyone that has been a member of either IOT or NES at any time. Full stop.

I must be reading a different thread than you, considering the situation of counting active players as people who participated in the past few months was seriously tossed around by the staff a few pages back.

I agree, NES has higher quality. But come on. Thlayli intentionally pointed out only a part of the whole. I'm pretty damn sure there's high-quality IOTs with a damn good storyline. Not that I've played in them or anything, unlike you, who seems to know everything about IOT, right? Yes, EoE is the best NES or forum game I've ever seen here. But that doesn't mean we're incompetent. In fact, I bet with NESers playing an IOT, you would see the quality and length of some of the most popular NESes. And some people need a break from seriousness. Don't want it? Then don't goddamn look at it. It won't be forced upon your eyes.

You think I don't read IOT in search of quality players to approach? Quality comes through hard work, dedication, and years of practice in writing and study to make a well-rounded NESer. We didn't start off this way. A lot of us, including me, had to jump into the mix of much more talented people and fight to keep up. If your community doesn't have to do that it brings down the overall quality of the playerbase and promotes silliness. That won't bring in the players we want.

Don't think it started yet.

Then why did he compare it to anything?

I completely agree in regard to the fact that one shouldn't have power over the other, but you do know you can say it without being condescending and insulting the intelligence or skill level of IOTers first, right? We'd be more likely to listen and work together if we weren't treated like little kids who aren't allowed to play with the adults. I'd appreciate it, at least.

You're assuming that telling you you aren't up to snuff is the same as telling you you aren't welcome to try. The defensiveness of your community is the main abrasive component in all this. We never said you couldn't come. We said you needed to improve.

I personally see nothing wrong in more simple forum games. Does every game need to be novel like and have the most excellent quality? Sometimes, simpler games too can offer fun. For example, IOT XIV was not complex at all and yet it was a great experience and all of it's players had great fun.

And there have been complex IOT's too. Look at Imperium Offtopicum: Valiant Nations. Sure, it is not as complex as some NESes, but it is not ridiculously simple either.

I do not see why IOT's should become exactly like NES. There is no need for every game to be of top quality or be like EoE.

There is a problem with low quality games. Even a simple game should run at the highest possible quality for the moderator and players within it. There should be no slack in the line, at any point, just because players can't handle it. I would write the same level of story for EoE as I would for any other NES I play in, regardless of the complexity. EoE isn't even a very complex system, rules wise, it is just a deep, established, and realistic world.

Never accept the worse because you can't handle the work of the best.

Are the following definitions of IOT or of NES?

No.

 

[Thlayli]

I think there might be a solution to this, honestly.

Give IOTers a junior mod, limited to the new merged forum. Give the Frontier NESers a junior mod, limited to the new merged forum. That way, we feel like our communities and their ways of life will be protected, especially from people coming from other communities who might want to try and boss them around, or troll by abusing the inclusivity rules.

There are a lot of good candidates out there. I know EQ views his current moderating burden as a heavy one, and a distraction from running his games. Let him pass it to someone from the Frontier group. And give the IOT mod job to SK or Tyo, they're both excellent trustworthy people who we all like. I tell you now, that kind of move will be a HUGE encouragement for all of the Frontier people in coming back, and if anything, it will act as a final stage in reconciliation.

I respect EQ mightily for what he has done for the forum. During the crisis, he spoke and engaged with me, and leveled with me in a way that I truly respected. But the CFC mods specifically asked us, "Who would you like your new moderator to be?" and a bunch of names from what would become the Frontier community were put forward by me and others. And then, when NONE of these people were selected, in favor of someone who was NOT asked for by ANYONE but who had spoken out against the Frontier exodus and defended the mods, well...

It made me and everyone else feel like the mods were more interested in enforcing loyalty than reaching reconciliation. And I say this as someone who came out INCREDIBLY STRONGLY against the Frontier move, and nearly destroyed friendships and my entire NESing experience out of loyalty to CFC. You can't wonder why people don't trust the mods, when feedback is solicited and then blatantly and entirely ignored.

Jesus, I only complain and criticize and constantly go after the leadership here because I love CFC, and I want it to be as great as it can be. And don't make me get stupidly sappy over it. But I do. And I was branded some kind of dangerous rabblerouser for it.

 

[erez87]

Just to make certain, some NESers expect others to have a degree in creative writing before joining, some do not. Do not take the opinion of one NESer as the opinion of another.

Anyone is welcome to NES, even those who can't write as well as some NESers can. The point in NESing is the fun everyone have. Yes some NESes will require heavy creative writing ability, and if you don't have it, you shouldn't join such a NES, but some are far more open to anyone to write anything he can and enjoy. In fact, the famous EoE is run by someone who probably wouldn't mind having players who are less than perfect, or less than the best.

In any case, that isn't the debate on this thread. This is about the merging of IOT and NES. How long until we know what is the decision of the moderators?

 

[Thlayli]

I voted against the merge because it wasn't accompanied by appropriate planning or concessions. But, if we can collectively negotiate for those sorts of concessions to accompany a merge, including a space for PDMA leniency and mods from IOT and Frontier NES communities, I think that the vote for a merge will quickly move to near 100%.

I, for one, would change my vote to a yes.

Give our community the assurances it requires, and everyone can come out of this happy.