Out of curiosity, how would lead henchmen factor in to the equation (right-hand men, bodyguards, etc)? Will they be made at the discretion of the player for story telling purposes, or do you want to add a stat for that?
Don't know... I'm still waiting to see whether someone else will do this NES, but I guess that, so far, I am the one who is more or less interested in doing it.
As for henchmen... I think that normal henchmen of the bodyguard kind would only be for story telling, and then there would be right-hand men/women that could be really different - think Jaws from James Bond - and those guys could have special abilities that could make a mission actually work.
Of course, all those right-hand men/women would have to be developed in a very 60s fashion.
The real loaded geographic region, if you ask me, is the middle east. It isn't a continental plate and I even am including India in that region. The reason is because of the Pakistan part of the backstory, these are all places that have a lot of fallout because of the way this war happened around Pakistan, the bonuses and penalties for starting there don't derive from fundamental cultural identities, especially considering that I give people a lot of leeway in their faction creation, but from the way that the war was fought in that region and the effects to the land. That's why Africa gets increased R&D and why South America gets cheaper economic growth, not because of who is there, but more about what shape the land is in and what the positive and negative consequences of being in each of the theaters was.
Don't know... I'm still waiting to see whether someone else will do this NES, but I guess that, so far, I am the one who is more or less interested in doing it.
As for henchmen... I think that normal henchmen of the bodyguard kind would only be for story telling, and then there would be right-hand men/women that could be really different - think Jaws from James Bond - and those guys could have special abilities that could make a mission actually work.
Of course, all those right-hand men/women would have to be developed in a very 60s fashion.
For the map, I had thought to use this map by taillesskangaru, if he allows it:
Spoiler:
I'd simplify it, so that there are only 5-7 regions per continent (Africa, Asia, Europe, North America, Oceania and South America). That would certainly give all players a place to start from, and enough places to take over.
So I was thinking about alternate histories two weekends ago while eating breakfast and I began to play with a timeline where Columbus' ships all sink off the coast of Spain shortly after departure. The Catholic Church declares it punishment for Columbus' ideas that the world is round and European nations stop trying to cross the Atlantic.
I created a very rough map of 162 major Native tribes and nations and their locations in the pre-columbian Americas. As I have been researching each tribe to correct the boundaries and learn more about warfare and trade, I've realized that any NES I develop on this scale is going to have far to many NPCs. What is the best way to scale this down?
Secondly, I would love to eventually open a NES of the Americas with the final version of this scenario/map and also open a NES of the Old World. Each would start shortly after Columbus died and run until the atmosphere of either NES led the players to discover the other continents. At this point I would combine the two maps and stats and play it out as a full-world NES. Would this be possible? Could I get enough people interested?
Focus one one region's problems, or the border of two regions like the Plains and the Forrest tribes near the Mississippi, or the Forest and the Southern tribes in the East Coast, ect.
-or-
Allow only large, relatively 'united' tribes to be playable, with other areas with different shades of gray and noted on map as 'comparably uncivilized' and unplayable, there mostly to raid, trade, and minor diplomacy with 'civilized tribes' forming every so often.
One issue most of the educated already knew that the Earth was round before Columbus and part of the reason no one want to sponsor him was that he thought the world was much smaller than what the Greeks had predicted and they were right. If he hadn't hit America he'd have run out of supplies.
With the recent dearth of Non-Earth Fresh Starts, perhaps it is great opportunity to begin another! This time, however, to actually reach the fabled Modern Day, Ninja Dude and I decided that the best way to do so was to work together. Thats right, a Co-Mod NES. As rare as they seem, theyve proven to be successful before, and theres no reason it shouldnt again. In all ways, two Mods enables us to achieve greater things in [NES Name], and so we shall, with your help of course!
Players: The more the merrier as they say. There will be no limit and no restrictions to joining at anytime, and if you dont find a NPC to your liking, merely PM me, and you can start out with something entirely new. New players tend to stir the pot, and thats always appreciated, if not from a player stand point, but surely from mine. My only request, is that if you are considering joining, is that you have true commitment to the NES. If you dont like the rules or dont have enough time to play to your fullest, then please dont until such a time that you can. New NESers are always welcome, and dont be intermediated by the rules or the players. The latter, once you get to know them, are actually good people (I think), and along with Ninja and myself, will help you if you have any problems with the rules or anything else in this NES.
Stories: They are to be PMed to both Mods, and specific order templates will be given out when needed or requested. Above all, your orders are to be clear and concise. Detail is nice, but excessive detail isnt. Early orders are always appreciated, ones just before the deadline arent. Maybe Ill take that into consideration when updating.
Orders: They are to be PMed, and specific order templates will be given out when needed or requested. Above all, your orders are to be clear and concise. Detail is nice, but excessive detail isnt. Early orders are always appreciated, ones just before the deadline arent. Maybe Ill take that into consideration when updating.
NPCs: Non-Player-Controlled entities, which means that I will play them (aided by Cultural Values). Most of them might be expected to be comparatively passive but I make no promises and given the right situation these NPCs might prove as vigorous, dangerous and treacherous as PCs themselves. Underestimate them as you would underestimate any PCs.
Moderating Style: Whilst the inner-workings of the dual-modship of this NES will be keep secret, on the public face of it, Ninja will write the updates and I manage the stats and the rules. As we are both always on the same page, feel free to ask questions to either of us, youll get the same (mostly) consistent answer every time.
More importantly however, as to what may occur in those updates, realism, or more precisely, preventing the lack of it, is wanted. For me, having massive empires span the globe for years on end, or, say, acquiring railroads in medieval times, simply ruins any emersion and enjoyment I may have had in the NES, and the same applies here as a moderator of my own. If Ninja and I believe that a players actions that he/she ordered to be completely unrealistic for the current setting, returning to my previous example, trying to research railroads in medieval times, you will be notified, and such efforts will be switched to say, supporting inventers and innovators of the time via patronage. Turnover too, the rise and fall of empires, is equally important. The world is not a bed of roses, and neither will [NES Name] be. We will mercilessly attack any and all if need be. Why not be challenged? After all, what doesnt kill you makes you stronger, or your successor state that is.
Thanks to:
- Symphony D., for essentially copying his cultural rules.
- Das, for his ever so prevalent and useful IT-BT concept.
- Daftpanzer, for using some ideas from DaftNES2 and his Alternate Timeline Experiment.
- North King, for using parts of the N3S rules, and copying explanations of his.
- Disenfrancised, for taking elements of DisNES3.
- Birdjaguar, for advice and assistance.
CULTURAL WORLD RULES
Culture Template
The cultural stage is the starting point for the beginning of recorded history in [NES Name]. In real world terms, of course, this isnt actually true, peoples, societies, and their cultures dont just appear from thin air. Background is required for the cultures that emerge from the darkness, and all that follow them, and that is up for you, the NESer, to decide, provided you follow the template shown below. In the beginning of the NES, all players will be required to fill out a template in order to start, as will any who follow and dont choose an already existing entity (an NPC). Adopting or cooperatively creating similar traits of nearby cultures is heavily encouraged (bonuses possible/probable), if only to create realism where there would have starkly different cultures next to each other otherwise.
[Culture Name] /Player Color: [of your Culture] Language Family: [Add a description of your peoples language (and writing system if possible), and from what other languages it may have evolved from]. Excellent series of examples starts here. Descent Rights: [How do your people trace descent?] Inheritance Rights: [How do your people pass on the material and immaterial possessions of the recently deceased?] Religion(s): [Add a description of your peoples religious ideas] Climate Distribution: [Add a description for the preferable climate for your Culture] Society: [Add a description of your peoples society: how it is structured, how it functions] Economic Base: [What currently makes up the economy of your culture. Farming, nomadic, fishing, predatory, mercantile?] Nation Names: [Make a list of nation names for me to use. At least 10 or more, a couple dozen would be great] Person Names: [Make a list of names for me to use of famous persons. At least 10 or more, a couple dozen would be great] Place Names: [Make a list of place for me to use for notable places. At least 10 or more, a couple dozen would be great] Values: [Initial ordering of your cultures values. Currently, you may only choose the first four values. Taken from SymNES2, Values are of immense utility, allowing myself to account for events unaccounted for in player orders and to play NPCs competently. However, without the Cultural World system of SymNES2, I will simply request additional Values beyond the first four when appropriate.]
SpoilerVALUES :
A cultures's long term behavior is influenced by the values that culture embraces. Values represent the perceptive matrix through which a society is likely to view its choices and interactions in a given scenario.The chief function of values is to give their societies methods of generating coherent and characteristic responses to events not calculated for in orders, whatever those events might be.
Each value is allocated an entry ranging from 0 to 3, with 0 corresponding to the left-hand stance and 3 corresponding to the right-hand stance. The in-between values of 1 and 2 are the equivalent of adding somewhat to the description of the value they are nearest to; for example, a society with an Individualist / Collectivist rating of 1 would best be described as somewhat individualist.
A given individual value represents a simple (first order) response to a given topic. More complex (higher order) behavior involves the computation of a stance using several values. As an example, the third order behavior of a nation having the Naval (3), Conductive (3), and Somewhat Defensive (1) values would likely be an inclination towards blockades to strangle its enemies in wartime.
There are a total of sixteen (16) values available. Not all values are initially available, nor will all values be available at any given time. The values available to a given society depend strongly upon its cultural progression. The values list has been color-coded to represent the given cultural world (and its corresponding subdivisions) in which the value is applicable. Red corresponds to the Tribal World, yellow corresponds to the Imperial World, and green corresponds to the Commercial World. Left to right progresses through each cultural world in the order of Low, Medium, and High. If an indicator is lit, the value is available for that given stage of progression.
Spoiler:
Sedentary / Migratory - The measure to which a society is mobile or static in overall geographic positioning.
Offensive / Defensive - The measure in which a society is inclined to respond to threats, either by defending itself or attacking to defend its interests.
Militant / Pacifist - The measure in which a society is inclined to persuasion of others, either through negotiation or action.
Terrestrial / Aquatic - The measure by which a society is inclined to focus its power and prowess, either upon the sea or upon the land.
Constructive / Destructive - The measure by which a society constructs itself based on its neighbors, either peacefully or hostilely taking from them.
Cooperative / Autonomous - The measure by which a society is inclined to achieve its goals, either by working with others or operating by itself.
Individualist / Collectivist - The measure to which a society is willing or unwilling to subvert an individual to the will of the group.
Hedonistic / Ascetic - The measure to which members of a society seek material pleasure in the course of their existence.
Idealistic / Pragmatic - The measure by which a society is willing to evaluate problems and define solutions to them.
Productive / Conductive - The measure by which a society obtains necessary goods, either by chiefly producing them or exchanging with others for them.
Urban / Rural - The measure to which power is focused in dense, urbanized areas.
Centralized / Decentralized - The measure to which a society is willing to concentrate the power of its leadership in an arbitrarily defined setting or endeavor.
Vertical / Horizontal - The measure in which a society is inclined to develop, either outward through acquisition of new resources, or upward through improvement of existing ones.
Open Society / Closed Society - The measure to which a society's leadership is responsive and accountable to its citizens in an arbitrarily defined setting or endeavor.
Secular / Pious - The measure to which a society places importance in its spiritual beliefs.
Quantitative / Qualitative - The measure to which a society is willing to impose quality control on its produced effects despite potential detriments to cost and output.
EXAMPLES
For ease of comprehension, examples are provided below for the purposes of illustration, with low, medium, and high tiers provided for precision. Remember these are not to be strictly taken as gospel:
Low Tribal World: Tasmanian Aborigines to Australian Aborigines
Middle Tribal World: Modern Amazonian Tribes
High Tribal World: African Cattle Herders to Tonga Chiefdoms
Low Imperial World: Hawaiian Kingdom to Sumerian Empires
Middle Imperial World: Persian Empires
High Imperial World: Post-Han Chinese Empires
Low Commercial World: Spanish Empire
Middle Commercial World: British Empire
High Commercial World: United States of America
Culture Statistics
Name / Player
Color: Color
Language: Language Family(s)
Language Family
Instead of listing the main language(s) spoken your culture, provided is the main language family, including all the major and minor dialects contained therein. There hasnt been a dominant language imposed upon your people so far, whether it be by a government or other force, and so many variants still thrive. Should there be multiple influential language families communicated within your culture, they will be listed left to right by greater to lesser percentage.
GAMEPLAY(for clarity)
Throughout the culture stage, players will (Obviously) control a culture, loosely defined here as the group of similar and interrelated peoples and societies (described in the respective cultural template), as it develops internally from small tribes to chiefdoms, kingdoms, and beyond towards the regular NES, all the while interacting with the many nearby cultures, and doing whatever else you may see fit. The stats were designed with freedom of play in mind, and truly you have the ability to do as you choose with your culture, whether thatd be to follow the path of Attila, or roam the Earth in migration, or to merely settle down. Dont forget, the tribal stage spans thousands of years.
And even after the Cultural World ends (for individuals, at least), its effects will still be felt long after. The Values you filled out in culture template will continued to be filled in throughout the NES, even up to the Modern Day. While your culture may have faded into the annals of history long ago, the peoples which descend from it have not. NPCs will continue to be controlled by culture(s) even to the Modern Day, and in the quest to provide interesting and component NPCs, the Values which you have provided will prove key to guiding them. Even in your own countries and nations, the utility of Values cannot be understated in formulating realistic and reasonable responses to unforeseen events and crises. (This specifically had already been mentioned, but it bears repeating!)
However, how does the Tribal World end? How is the transition from amorphous Cultures to Countries made? Simply enough, once your culture has reached the threshold of the transition, you will be notified in the update, and you can begin forming your own countries out of the lands of your culture. Whilst you cannot create your stats - that is best left to me - the history of how your countries emerged, the overview of the current political, economic, cultural, military environments (and others), notable persons, and any other details of these emergent polities, is up to you. Finish this, I will promptly generate the stats based on your descriptions, and you will be free to choice any of your new countries to play in time for the next update. Choose wisely however, for all other countries will become NPCs after your decision, and open for any who wish to join. A great example to follow starts here.
IMPERIAL WORLD RULES
The regular portion of the NES, you, as a player, will run a country as its leaders, conducting diplomacy, writing stories, and sending orders. Nothing terribly out of the ordinary here.
Your form of government, unsurprisingly. If your government is democratic in some fashion, that is, it has some other body or person with some control over your actions - there will be a possibility of some or all of your orders being overridden, if they disagree with it, and makes explaining your actions all the more important. This is not to say however, that you may modify or remove entirely such boundaries to your actions.
It is also important to note that if your country is decentralized (it should be easy enough to figure out from the government form), that it will be harder to introduce empire-wide reforms; also, there is greater chance of disintegration should things go badly. Know that centralization efforts are likely to incur some serious opposition in a traditionally-decentralized state, whether from the masses or from the local political elite.
Culture
Your Culture Group is, obviously, what culture and group of peoples your country belongs to. There may of course be more one culture in your country, and should there be, then they will listed in order of size left to right. The descriptions of each culture (and associated Values) can be found on the front page.
Weak / Notable / Strong / Mighty / Dominant
Religion
The faiths and philosophies that have a substantial following - not including the various minorities that will probably exist. The dominant religion(s) may affect relations with other countries and also have may have varying effects on the society. The descriptions of each religion can be found on the front page.
Weak / Notable / Strong / Mighty / Dominant
Economy
The economy is the sum of all goods produced, consumed, exported, and imported in your nation. It could be summarized as everything to do with money and standards of living. In this stage of the NES so far, you have relatively limited control over your economy.
In a break from most fresh starts, your total economy is not at your disposal for spending. Rather, the Wealth stat shows you how much you have to spend from what gold you possess in your treasury, represented in e. You can spend it on increasing the size of your military, invest it back into your own economy, patronize artists or writers to give a boost to your culture, invest in large projects to improve a specific aspect of your nation: basically anything you can think of. You can also bank it for use in a future turn (useful when you want to perform an action that requires a large one-time expenditure), but be forewarned, over time, your savings will gradually decrease. You may also spend into debt. Whether by orchestrated loan with other players, or privately, the chose is yours. Again however, if you are in debt for successive turns, things, especially economically, may turn sour.
You draw your wealth, obviously, from taxes on your economy, which is described one line above. Base economy represents the agriculture, aquaculture, mining, internal trade, and miscellaneous taxation sectors of your countries economy. Urban economy represents the economic activity located in and around your cities and urban centers, and also includes manufacturing. Finally, Trade is, funnily enough, external commerce.
Prices: (Examples)
1e gold is also the approximate price for a minor voyage of exploration.
1e gold would be adequate for a singular major fort or localized series of fortifications.
2e is sufficient to found a minor colony with a fortified city, except in the case of extreme distances.
3e gold is sufficient to create a decent irrigation system over a region of moderate size.
7e gold at least is required to create a Wonder of the World, perhaps more than 10e.
Military
Pretty much the usual number-based military; composed of an army and, optionally, ships on the sea. You can either pay a standard price to have professional soldiers (mercenaries), or simply raise an army of levies when the time calls.
Professionals, interchangeably called mercenaries, while superior to levies, are extremely expensive to recruit and pay for, but are the most effective method to deal with major threats when used correctly.
Infantry: 5,000 for 1e
Chariots: 500 for 1e
*Elephants: 40 for 1e
Ships: 30 for 1e
*Nations on the savannah get half-priced elephant maintenance and recruitment.
Levies, unlike professionals, do not have a standard price, but can be raised en masse at a vastly cheaper price. You can raise levies by calls for recruitment among the populace, conscription, or otherwise, at the price of 2e. However, depending on a variety of factors, the size and total population of your country, the efficiency of the system implemented, and societal factors, the amount of levies you receive will vary immensely. Feel free to ask for a rough estimate of what to expect, but one may expect to get at least 10,000 to 20,000 men, if not thousands upon thousands more.
Upkeep is to be determined by me on a case-by-case basis.
For Logistics, roughly 1e per 10,000-15,000 soldiers is needed to support your troops if they are fighting outside of your borders, depending on the terrain, quality of supply routes on the route you are traversing, and the distance from your supply centers.
To make life easier for all of us, but particularly me, there will be a military doctrine system. A military doctrine covers the basic tactics and possibly strategy and other such things, like occupation policy of a military; however, unlike the popular system found in AFSNES, I will provide a list of various standard doctrines, much like those in DaftNES2, which you will then be able to choose and modify. Your choice of standard doctrine will not be kept a secret, however, any deviations from them you may decide to have will be. Doctrines are extremely important, because, after all, each update is many years, and Ive yet to found someone who can predict all the unexpected twists and turns that may occur, and your doctrine will assist me in updating when I have no concrete orders from which use, much as I will do the same with your cultures values on a grander scale.
SpoilerDOCTRINES :
Needs to be completed.
Future Statistics
Let's not get ahead of ourselves here eh? Once I finish them, I'll update this here.
I am exceedingly interested! Do you have a map prepared already, and if not, do you have a preference of map style, and if you do, would you like me to make one?
Mostly, and I do intend to join, but I worry that you may be either making too much nuance, little details that players will ignore or mod(s) will not really do anything with, or the flipside of that you are trying for too much and it will become a hassle to run for the mod(s) quickly (like PerfNES for instance)
For the map, I had thought to use this map by taillesskangaru, if he allows it:
Spoiler:
I'd simplify it, so that there are only 5-7 regions per continent (Africa, Asia, Europe, North America, Oceania and South America). That would certainly give all players a place to start from, and enough places to take over.
Mostly, and I do intend to join, but I worry that you may be either making too much nuance, little details that players will ignore or mod(s) will not really do anything with, or the flipside of that you are trying for too much and it will become a hassle to run for the mod(s) quickly (like PerfNES for instance)
Symph's Values are honestly, my favorite feature of a NES I've ever come across, which, alongside adding further customization to cultures and their utility in aiding NPC action, are why they are included. However, since they are not a vital cog of the NES, if prove to be a drag on the NES, don't worry, I'll react appropriately.
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), and along with Ninja and myself, will help you if you have any problems with the rules or anything else in this NES.
