Plan for Mosque III...

[MobBoss]

No Muslim is allowed to pray at a site damaged by the 9/11 terrorist attacks?

Who said this?

You still haven't answered the question, how do you expect to affect the mosque's funding from groups that have consistently spoken out in favor of the mosque.

Its called public pressure. Sure not everyone will be affected by it, but a lot will.

And its just like anything else in our society. When a highly negative reaction to something is witnessed people are usually more inclined to not be associated with it.

Case in point with the current situation. The Mosque is having problems raising money isnt it?

Why yes, it is.

You agree that this is the only thing that your protesting can even attempt to affect about the mosque, so it would nice if you elaborated.

Possibly even more important is the question has it had an affect so far?

When you say that you oppose the Islamic center because protesting against it will generate controversy that will negatively affect Muslim/Non-Muslim relations, you're being kind of disingenuous by supporting the protesting part yet opposing all the rest.

I am not being disengenuous at all, merely being honest about my opinion.

I agree with you when you say that the mosque shouldn't be constructed

Then we dont really have anything to argue about.

 

[Traitorfish]

Who said this?

No-one did, it was, if I understand correctly, an attempt to infer some relevance from your repeated comments in reference to the damage done to the building. Perhaps if you were to set the record straight as to why you pursued that line of discussion, we would not be forced to infer such things.

 

[MobBoss]

No-one did

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[BSmith1068]

The majority of Americans polled think it is. That is not enough reason that the government should step in, but it is enough reason for the owners themselves to reconsider.

No. It is not.

Should the KKK not be allowed to march because most Americans find them offensive?

I think your sig is pretty funny though

Which option would you rather have?

 

[MobBoss]

No. It is not.

Should the KKK not be allowed to march because most Americans find them offensive?

Do you think the KKK marching improves their relations with blacks?

Do you regard a KKK march as a peace making event?

Do you support a KKK march when one comes to town simply because its legal? Or would you protest against them even while allowing them to march?

 

[BSmith1068]

Do you think the KKK marching improves their relations with blacks?

Do you regard a KKK march as a peace making event?

Do you support a KKK march when one comes to town simply because its legal? Or would you protest against them even while allowing them to march?

The answers to these questions are irrelevant. But the question I asked is not. Should the KKK not be allowed to march because most Americans find them offensive?

 

[GhostWriter16]

The answers to these questions are irrelevant. But the question I asked is not. Should the KKK not be allowed to march because most Americans find them offensive?

They should be allowed but its still wrong. Same with the mosque.

 

[MobBoss]

The answers to these questions are irrelevant.

No, they are not.

Why wont you answer them?

If they are truly 'irrelevant' then your answers wont matter will they?

I think your inability to answer these questions shows that they are indeed relevant to the issue at hand.

So, show a bit of intestinal fortitude and and answer my questions.

 

[Traitorfish]

They should be allowed but its still wrong. Same with the mosque.

Same with the Confederate flag avatar, eh?

 

[dwaxe]

Its called public pressure. Sure not everyone will be affected by it, but a lot will.

And its just like anything else in our society. When a highly negative reaction to something is witnessed people are usually more inclined to not be associated with it.

Case in point with the current situation. The Mosque is having problems raising money isnt it?

Why yes, it is.

Considering the fact that it hasn't even started raising money yet already has support from two large middle-eastern governments, no it isn't.

Possibly even more important is the question has it had an affect so far?

I was hoping you could elucidate this point for the rest of us. Please show us a possible funding source that has withdrawn its support for the mosque from fear of public pressure.

I am not being disengenuous at all, merely being honest about my opinion.

I meant your opinion was disingenuous. By transitive property, [self-censored trolling ]

Then we dont really have anything to argue about.

 

[BSmith1068]

No, they are not.

Why wont you answer them?

If they are truly 'irrelevant' then your answers wont matter will they?

I think your inability to answer these questions shows that they are indeed relevant to the issue at hand.

So, show a bit of intestinal fortitude and and answer my questions.

I didn’t answer them because they are an attempt to deflect the question I asked, and are specifically designed to be illustrative of how the situation is different – when it really isn’t.

But since you insist (I expected it really) here you go:

Do you think the KKK marching improves their relations with blacks? – No. But that is irrelevant to the discussion because no one has said that it would. Ever.

Do you regard a KKK march as a peace making event? – No. I regard it as a lawful expression of free speech. One that I happen to disagree with vehemently, but it is their right to do so if they choose. This is also not comparable to the Mosque situation because the KKK has never stated that they are a peaceful organization that wants to make peace with (and between) communities. Quite the opposite really.

Do you support a KKK march when one comes to town simply because its legal? Or would you protest against them even while allowing them to march? – I fully support them wanting to make public asses of themselves. I won’t go anywhere near their march or otherwise concern myself with their presence. If they want to state their views publicly, so much the better. It is not for me to decide if they can or can not do this.

I personally find the views and actions of the KKK reprehensible and vile, but we are a nation of laws and a nation of rights. My opinion doesn’t matter one way or another in this situation. They have the right to march and who am I to disagree?

So now it is your turn to man-up. Should the KKK not be allowed to march because most Americans find them offensive?

And let’s not try to dodge the question yet again by finding one more technicality or narrow angle of debate.

 

[Haseri]

Oh hey, look Ron Paul.

 

[Ajidica]

I meant that he thought it was offensive, and I happen to agree, and while I don't think its the reason these Muslims are doing this, it is Muslim custom to build a mosque near a great victory.

Bullcrap. Remember, the guys trying to build the mosque are either Sufis or moderate muslims. The Imam has repeated spoken out against terrorism and their lesser jihad.

The majority of Americans polled think it is. That is not enough reason that the government should step in, but it is enough reason for the owners themselves to reconsider.

Why should these people have to back down from their rights?

Do you think the KKK marching improves their relations with blacks?

Do you regard a KKK march as a peace making event?

Do you support a KKK march when one comes to town simply because its legal? Or would you protest against them even while allowing them to march?

Key difference. The KKK is a group that seeks to promote intolerance. The mosque-builders are trying to promote tolerance and peace.

 

[MobBoss]

Considering the fact that it hasn't even started raising money yet already has support from two large middle-eastern governments, no it isn't.

Which two would those be?

I was hoping you could elucidate this point for the rest of us. Please show us a possible funding source that has withdrawn its support for the mosque from fear of public pressure.

Rofl, no one keeps track of funding that didnt happen.

I didn’t answer them because they are an attempt to deflect the question I asked, and are specifically designed to be illustrative of how the situation is different – when it really isn’t.

Actually, they are illustrative how the situations are alike.

But since you insist (I expected it really) here you go:

Do you think the KKK marching improves their relations with blacks? – No. But that is irrelevant to the discussion because no one has said that it would. Ever.

Neither has the planned mosque improved muslim/non-muslim relations. So we have a similarity checkmark there.

Do you regard a KKK march as a peace making event? – No. I regard it as a lawful expression of free speech. One that I happen to disagree with vehemently, but it is their right to do so if they choose.

Neither do people recognize building the mosque as a 'peace making event' as the unwillingness to compromise by the planners is indicative of not being considerate of others feelings in regards to 9/11. Another similarity checkmark.

Do you support a KKK march when one comes to town simply because its legal? Or would you protest against them even while allowing them to march? – I fully support them wanting to make public asses of themselves. I won’t go anywhere near their march or otherwise concern myself with their presence. If they want to state their views publicly, so much the better. It is not for me to decide if they can or can not do this.[/QUOTE]

So you would actually support a march? Knowing full well it could escalate into violence?

And in the face of such a march, you would show apathy?

Interesting. Not really what I thought you would answer. I would have thought you to take a stronger stand against something like that.

I personally find the views and actions of the KKK reprehensible and vile, but we are a nation of laws and a nation of rights. My opinion doesn’t matter one way or another in this situation. They have the right to march and who am I to disagree?

Well, the consitution gives you that right to disagree. Its up to you to exercise it or not.

So now it is your turn to man-up. Should the KKK not be allowed to march because most Americans find them offensive?

They should only be denied if the expected level of violence exceeds public safety concerns.

Key difference. The KKK is a group that seeks to promote intolerance.

Actually, I think one of their talking points is promoting peace by racial segregation.

 

[Traitorfish]

I meant that he thought it was offensive, and I happen to agree, and while I don't think its the reason these Muslims are doing this, it is Muslim custom to build a mosque near a great victory.

And, I am lead to understood, near great tragedies. Why assume one, and not the other?

 

[Ajidica]

Actually, I think one of their talking points is promoting peace by racial segregation.

Source please.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Oh hey, look Ron Paul.

Good stuff:

Just think of what might (not) have happened if the whole issue had been ignored and the national debate stuck with war, peace, and prosperity. There certainly would have been a lot less emotionalism on both sides. The fact that so much attention has been given the mosque debate, raises the question of just why and driven by whom?

In my opinion it has come from the neo-conservatives who demand continual war in the Middle East and Central Asia and are compelled to constantly justify it.

They never miss a chance to use hatred toward Muslims to rally support for the ill conceived preventative wars. A select quote from soldiers from in Afghanistan and Iraq expressing concern over the mosque is pure propaganda and an affront to their bravery and sacrifice.

This sentiment seems to confirm that Islam itself is to be made the issue, and radical religious Islamic views were the only reasons for 9/11. If it became known that 9/11 resulted in part from a desire to retaliate against what many Muslims saw as American aggression and occupation, the need to demonize Islam would be difficult if not impossible.

There is no doubt that a small portion of radical, angry Islamists do want to kill us but the question remains, what exactly motivates this hatred?

If Islam is further discredited by making the building of the mosque the issue, then the false justification for our wars in the Middle East will continue to be acceptable.

The justification to ban the mosque is no more rational than banning a soccer field in the same place because all the suicide bombers loved to play soccer.

No wonder so many "conservatives" hate him so much, even though he is also quite conservative. He isn't afraid to actually speak the truth in a party where it is becoming extremely rare to do so.

 

[MobBoss]

Source please.

Go look it up yourself, I dont got time. But I seem to recall this from some 20/20 special or something, where some higher up functionary made mention of that.

But that was the entire premise of segregation...that there wouldnt be interacial violence as long as everything stayed segregated, thus supposedly creating a (faux) peaceful situation.

I didnt say their opinion was valid.

 

[Leonel]

I think we're straying off the topic. Why shouldn't we let a mosque/community center be built in Lower Manhattan again?

 

[Ajidica]

Go look it up yourself, I dont got time. But I seem to recall this from some 20/20 special or something, where some higher up functionary made mention of that.

But that was the entire premise of segregation...that there wouldnt be interacial violence as long as everything stayed segregated, thus supposedly creating a (faux) peaceful situation.

I didnt say their opinion was valid.

The burden of proof is on you, not me. You asserted it, you back it up.

So, Domination. Your political soul-mate, Ron Paul, has denounced the opposition to the mosque.