Plan for Mosque III...

[BSmith1068]

The civilian casualties in the wars far outnumber the ~3,000 killed on 9/11.

And the other few hundred or so killed in other attacks throughout the world.

 

[Ayn Rand]

But why is that blood on America's hands?

 

[BSmith1068]

Do we seriously have to explain that to you?

 

[civver_764]

But why is that blood on America's hands?

Because we started the wars? Because our military represents us?

 

[BSmith1068]

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War:

Source Iraqi - casualties - March 2003 to...
Iraq Family Health Survey - 151,000 deaths - June 2006
Lancet survey - 601,027 deaths out of 654,965 excess deaths. - June 2006
Opinion Research Business survey - 1,033,000 deaths as a result of the conflict. - August 2007
Associated Press - 110,600 deaths - April 2009
Iraq Body Count - 95,888 – 104,595 civilian deaths as a result of the conflict. - April 2010

Sorry for the crappy formatting – the chart in the link is better.

This is just the most recent Iraq war. Not for any other conflict like Afghanistan or the Gulf War.

 

[Ayn Rand]

Because we started the wars? Because our military represents us?

America didn't start the wars - Saddam Hussein and Al-Qaeda did.

BSmith, "blood on the hands" is an expression meaning moral guilt. Are you saying America is morally responsible for all those dead muslims?

 

[Ajidica]

America didn't attack Iraq?
Saddam didn't support Al-Qaeda at all, they were a different sect than his ruling party.

 

[BSmith1068]

America didn't start the wars - Saddam Hussein and Al-Qaeda did.

BSmith, "blood on the hands" is an expression meaning moral guilt. Are you saying America is morally responsible for all those dead muslims?

Sure. Saddam Hussein started the war. Right. And up is down and inside is outside.

have someone's blood on one's hands
1. Lit. to have the blood of some other person on one's hands. He fell and got a terrible cut and now I have his blood on my hands as well as my shirt.
2. Fig. to be responsible for someone's death;to be guilty of causing someone's death. The teenager's blood was on the policeman's hands. The king's blood was on the hands of the murderer who killed him.

http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/have+blood+on+hands

Bold is mine.

 

[civver_764]

America didn't start the wars - Saddam Hussein and Al-Qaeda did.

You're getting worse every day. Saddam Hussein started the war how? Al-Qaeda don't represent Afghanistan but even if we exclude that war the numbers are stacked against you.

 

[Ayn Rand]

America didn't attack Iraq?
Saddam didn't support Al-Qaeda at all, they were a different sect than his ruling party.

Wait a minute! I thought you loved freedom and hate aggression. So you must see there was a need to take out the Iraqi dictator and his torturing henchmen. Didn't America do the right thing by your ethics? And the situation was created by Iraq in the first place - America just finished it.

I don't get you Ajidica - one minute your nitpicking to defend religious freedom and liberty, the next you are condemning America for standing up to a torturing dictatorship. Make up your mind which side you're on

It's like you're running on a double-logic -

i) No mistake by America too small - condemn condemn condemn!

ii) No mistake by America's enemies too large - excuse excuse excuse!

If you're going to hold America to such a high moral standard, you should apply it to Iraq and Saddam Hussein as well.

@Civver 764 - you'd be a lot more convincing as an anarcho-communist rather than as a totalitarian communist if you applied your ethical principles a little more consistently as well.

What you guys are basically saying is that America is a bigger terrorist than Al-Qaeda, amiright?

 

[Mise]

Right, cos opposing an American invasion of Iraq is basically the same thing as supporting Saddam Hussein's tyrannical regime.

 

[Ayn Rand]

Right, cos opposing an American invasion of Iraq is basically the same thing as supporting Saddam Hussein's tyrannical regime.

You're talking about it like it's a hypothetical. Opposing the actual invasion is morally awful - American troops went in to secure the property rights, democratic freedoms and religious freedom that you are all whining about so much on this thread.

Remember, those rights that you want muslims to have so bad? The ones that American troops gave to Iraqi muslims after the invasion? The ones that Saddam Hussein and the Iraqi post-war "resistance" were determined to destroy.

The ones that only bigots are opposed to...

 

[Mise]

What the hell are you babbling about now Having a name like "Ayn Rand", I automatically expect less sense from you than the average person, but somehow you've failed to reach even those low expectations.

 

[Ajidica]

Wait a minute! I thought you loved freedom and hate aggression. So you must see there was a need to take out the Iraqi dictator and his torturing henchmen.

Why not Sudan where the situation is far worse?

Didn't America do the right thing by your ethics? And the situation was created by Iraq in the first place - America just finished it.

We can't be the policeman of the world, thats what the UN is for. Saddam would die, and in the ensuing squable for power the UN could go in on a peacekeeping mission.
If we are going to be justifying wars based on getting rid of dictators, why is there no US military presence in Sudan?

It's like you're running on a double-logic -

i) No mistake by America too small - condemn condemn condemn!

ii) No mistake by America's enemies too large - excuse excuse excuse!

If you're going to hold America to such a high moral standard, you should apply it to Iraq and Saddam Hussein as well.[/quote]
Way off topic.

@Civver 764 - you'd be a lot more convincing as an anarcho-communist rather than as a totalitarian communist if you applied your ethical principles a little more consistently as well.

And you would be a little better at being a Libertarian if you were quite so Islamophobic.

What you guys are basically saying is that America is a bigger terrorist than Al-Qaeda, amiright?

For me, not at all. We are just clarifying the statement the Imam said because your interpretation was wrong.
Just because he isn't anti-America doesn't mean he has to slavishly endorse everything America does.

 

[Mise]

We're basically saying that Saddam Hussein's regime is better than sex. That is basically what we're saying.

 

[civver_764]

Actually we went in there so Cheney and friends could make their oil buddies happy. I've never liked Saddam(although my government certainly used to) but we've only made things worse.

And I think it's pretty hard to deny that America has done more damage to the world than Al-Qaeda could ever dream of doing.

BTW you'd be a lot more convincing as an objectivist if you weren't blatantly racist.

Moderator Action: What's with all the name calling and trolling in this thread?
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[illram]

I am now more interested in the psychology of what perpetuates this type of discussion rather than the underlying debate. Which I can't remember now. What is this all about again?

 

[Ayn Rand]

And I think it's pretty hard to deny that America has done more damage to the world than Al-Qaeda could ever dream of doing.

Which means that Al-Qaeda are a better alternative than America, right?

I'm so glad we finally got to the bottom of this - because we knew all along what this mosque is really about, and you should all know that you don't fool us.

 

[MobBoss]

Do we seriously have to explain that to you?

Actually, yes, please explain why the blood of the innocents in Iraq is to blame on anyone else but Saddam Hussein.

Because in my humble opinion, he and he alone really deserves the blame for every bit of it for the choices he made where his nation was concerned.

 

[Mise]

I am now more interested in the psychology of what perpetuates this type of discussion rather than the underlying debate. Which I can't remember now. What is this all about again?

Well, we were just discussing how god damn great Saddam Hussein was! Man, I wish that guy ruled ALL the world!

OOPS! Did I just let slip my liberal communist Al Qaeda-sympathising jihadist Islamification agenda? Silly me! Pretend you never heard that.