Plan for Mosque III...

[El_Machinae]

Its perfectly rational for people to be concerned over an Islamic mosque to be built in such a close proximity to the worst attack on American soil perpetrated by Islamic fanatics.

You saying its not rational, doesnt make it not rational.

No, it fails every rationality test. You're misusing the term 'rational', even if you feel that you are not. Calling something 'rational', when it's not, is a metacognitive failure or a misuse of the term.

The objection to the objection is that it's irrational. Oh, and that it's also divisive and hateful. It's no surprise that something that's divisive and hateful is 'irrational', either.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Now wait a second. You said it was already 'just like' the crusades...not 'will be like' the crusades.

Who cares about an absurd argument over semantics like that instead of addressing the issues? I certainly don't.

Nah, in fact, I think if we have our way things will actually get better for muslim/non-muslim relations in the USA because it will show muslims as being considerate of non-muslim issues and feelings.

I find it hilarious how you are so interested in protecting the "feelings" of bigoted Americans at the expense of non-bigoted ones.

The bottom line is that you are indeed advocating they lose their rights to practice their peaceful religion as they see fit for absolutely no "rational" reason.

 

[useless]

Just incase Mob misses Warpus' questions:

By the way, where is your outrage regarding the Pentagon mosque, now that you know about it?

Also, how do you feel about the #2 Fox News shareholder funding the community centre?

 

[MobBoss]

What about it Mobby? Care to explain the inconsistency?

Its not inconsistent if you actually read my comments in context.

 

[nonconformist]

IS basketball unamerican?

 

[dirtyparrot]

Just for some balance, let's point out the left-wing "stoking" of the argument;

i) This is an attack on all muslims [wrong]
ii) The right are arguing against property rights [wrong]
iii) Anyone who criticises Islam is a fascist/Nazi [wrong]
iv) Normal Americans have "no right to take offence" and any/all who do are "bigots" [wrong]
v) There are no rational arguments against building the mosque [wrong]
vi) Terrorists will in no way see this as a victory [wrong]

And we only need to check the line-up of usual anti-american suspects, who incidentally normally argue against freedom of religion and property rights in their socialist utopias, who are rushing to suddenly defend property rights and religious freedom [but only to incite subversion] to see who is really stirring this up and misrepresenting it.

I'm not going to address the last paragraph because that's just absurd. But, on the various points:

i) It's a question of justice and equality. And this has nothing to do with all Muslims, just the ones in America. They're already being treated badly there simply because they're Muslims. And it's precisely because of a certain portion of their population's ignorance towards Islam and that they equate all muslims with terrorists.

ii) I don't think that anyone has stated that. It's probably closer to a vast majority of the people agree in their right to build it. But, they want to try to guilt them into not using their rights. It would be like telling a black person, you have the right to sit at the front of the bus, but we really prefer if you moved further back, thanks.

iii) Noone has made that claim other than Newt Gingrich and his comparison of building the mosque/community center to a Nazi monument.

iv) You can still have the right and be a bigot. I think that alot of it stems from bigotry/xenophobia and a lack of self-education. How many of them have any actual knowledge of Islam? Some of the opposition by people directly affected might be understandable, but not rational. So, it's on the people to understand that Islam as a whole is not responsible for killing their loved ones.

v) I think that most of us are still waiting for a rational reason that it shouldn't be built.

vi) Terrorists are going to write their own narrative regardless of what happens from hereon out (this issue would have been moot if this never made the news). And I'm sure that whatever happens will prove some point for them. So, it's pointless on base your reasoning on that. What I would be more concerned about the marginalization and hate towards young Muslims in America. IMO, a disenchanted person is much more likely to join extremism, especially if he believes that all of his country hates him or her. That to me is the real danger of all of this rather this being a recruiting tool abroad.

 

[Ajidica]

No one has a right to ignore laws and thats not what is being advocated to my knowledge.

Okay. Point me to the law that says public opinion, or the government, can legaly deny someone the right to build what they want on their property.

This has never been a freedom of religion issue. And simply because they pray there doesnt make it a mosque afaik.

So your opposition is based on the fact there will be a mosque in the building? What if they built a Christian church and decided they would just pray in there, would that make it okay?
It appears your objection boils down to the fact it is a building that has connections to Islam.

Actually, this was on all the major media in addition to Fox. You cant just blame them for it.

I was under the impression that they were the ones who blew it out of proportion initialy, but I could be mistaken. Regardless, the far right tended to be the ones are most vocal about it. When I asked my grandparent about it (hes an old style conservative) his sole response was "Its not in my back yard, I don't care. It isn't going to be anti-American, thats the only concern I have."

 

[Formaldehyde]

As the previous Daily Show clip showed, Fox News could find no fault with it back in December and seemed to even support it. If they didn't instigate this bruhaha when it suddenly became such an issue this month, they certainly stoked the fires once it did start. It would be interesting to find out where it did become such a hot topic with the far-right.

 

[MobBoss]

I looked up the official park51 website, and looked up what the planners have to say about this:

Yes, they said its a mosque. Thanks for confirming that.

Do you understand the difference between a community centre inside a mosque, and a mosque inside a community centre?

Do you understand that all remains to be determined in the final plan?

Again, I suggest we all pay attention to the non-profit status and see if its all done under a single account.

]By the way, where is your outrage regarding the Pentagon mosque, now that you know about it?

I dont really 'know' about it. But all I can say, as a military, thus governmental entity, its mandated to treat all religions equally.

I also disagree that the Pentagon attack carries the emotional weight of the WTC towers coming down and witnessing people jumping from them. While both occurred on 9/11 they are simply not equal in emotional weight as far as the nation is concerned.

Do you agree with that? I should hope so since its fairly common sense to admit it.

Also, how do you feel about the #2 Fox News shareholder funding the community centre?

Dont know anything about it yet as I havent looked into it at all.

No, it fails every rationality test.

And I disagree with you.

You're misusing the term 'rational', even if you feel that you are not. Calling something 'rational', when it's not, is a metacognitive failure or a misuse of the term.

I disagree. Again, the concern that Americas enemies would see this as a victory for Islam is valid, and quite rational, and is just as rational as saying they would be outraged if the mosque were not built, although it has very little to do with their version of Islam.

Its simply not an irrational response to ask the mosque planners to be cognizant of the strong and emotional feelings and issues surrounding 9/11. I am still hopeful that they are truly 'peace builders' as they say they are, and compromise in an effort to build that peace further.

Who cares about an absurd argument over semantics like that instead of addressing the issues? I certainly don't.

So you recant your initial statement that this is the same as the crusades?

I find it hilarious how you are so interested in protecting the "feelings" of bigoted Americans at the expense of non-bigoted ones.

I certainly dont think labeling everything as 'bigoted' is a valid answer to everything, no. And I would hardly be the only one that thinks 9/11 left a huge emotional scar upon the nation.

The bottom line is that you are indeed advocating they lose their rights to practice their peaceful religion as they see fit for absolutely no "rational" reason.

Quite false. I advocate that they truely embrace peacekeeping as they say they do and compromise to show the nation they do care about non-muslims concerns over 9/11 and that they do so voluntarily, legally and of their own accord.

Alleging I advocate anything other than that would be irrational.

 

[Formaldehyde]

So you recant your initial statement that this is the same as the crusades?

Nope. I think it is a modern-day Crusade. As this issue clearly shows, there is obviously a lot of hatred of and bigotry towards Muslims in this country. And almost all of it seems to be coming from Christians. That sounds like a Crusade to me. YMMV.

I certainly dont think labeling everything as 'bigoted' is a valid answer to everything, no.

I don't either. But I think anybody who did lose a family member on 9/11 and is actually offended at the construction of this facility certainly qualifies.

And I would hardly be the only one that thinks 9/11 left a huge emotional scar upon the nation.

Most of us managed to get over it without trying to blame Islam instead of the handful of fanatics who actually did it.

 

[Newbunkle]

Its simply not an irrational response to ask the mosque planners to be cognizant of the strong and emotional feelings and issues surrounding 9/11.

I'm sure they're well aware of the emotions of 9/11 considering that they suffered it along with the rest of their community. Its irrational to expect them to relocate because of those feelings, considering that they have absolutely nothing to do with the attack.

 

[MobBoss]

Okay. Point me to the law that says public opinion, or the government, can legaly deny someone the right to build what they want on their property.

Well, there are the myriad zoning and planning laws available that say unless you comply you cant build what you want, even on your own property.

Then there is also eminent domain, which says gov can take your property away for the greater good of the citizenry.

Heck, here in Washington State, we have laws that even prevent people from cutting down trees on their own property. So yeah, there are tons of examples to pull from for you.

So your opposition is based on the fact there will be a mosque in the building? What if they built a Christian church and decided they would just pray in there, would that make it okay?

Since Christians didnt perpetrate 9/11 I dont see much objection to that. Do you?

 

[El_Machinae]

And I disagree with you.

Of course you do, but that's your own cross to bear. I didn't expect that you would agree.

 

[illram]

Arguments based on emotion and absolutely no fact whatsoever are not rational by any objective definition of the term.

 

[Mise]

What if they officially started calling the existing building in which they practiced their faith 2 blocks from Ground Zero "a Mosque" - would you be against that?

Isnt that the same thing I was already objecting to?

Just to be clear, is this a "yes"?

 

[Defiant47]

Ah, the wonderful feeling of being ignored. Means I'm onto something that the others don't want to touch.

Go ahead, MobBoss, give me another fly-by statement that completely ignores everything I say, while putting it all down.

Kind of like

No, you just call it backwards because it literally blows holes in your point.

 

[Newbunkle]

Christians didnt perpetrate 9/11

Neither did the the vast majority of Muslims, and because it was carried out for political reasons people have no reason to blame their faith for it.

 

[MobBoss]

Nope. I think it is a modern-day Crusade. As this issue clearly shows, there is obviously a lot of hatred of Muslims in this country. And almost all of it seems to be coming from Christians. That sounds like a Crusade to me. YMMV.

Doesnt sound like a crusade to me, and to actually compare it to the historical crusade is, in my opinion, about as misrepresentative of the situation as one could conceivably get. Its rhetoric of the most extreme category.

But if your happy with that, ah well.

I don't either.

Then why do you do it literally all the time?

But I think anybody who did lose a family member on 9/11 and is actually offended at the construction of this facility certainly qualifies.

So someone who lost a family member on 9/11 but objects to the mosque for any reason is simply a bigot?

Wow. I am quite moved by your sympathy for the 9/11 victims families.

Thats.....just incredibly callous to say that about them in my opinion.

Most of us managed to get over it without trying to blame Islam instead of the handful of fanatics who actually did it.

Good for you, but I hardly think that gives you the right to label other victims simply as bigots.

I'm sure they're well aware of the emotions of 9/11 considering that they suffered it along with the rest of their community. Its irrational to expect them to relocate because of those feelings, considering that they have absolutely nothing to do with the attack.

No, its not irrational at all. In fact, if I were in the same position, I would see the situation as a distinct opportunity to build bridges and improve relations by being cognizant of non-muslim feelings.

But then again, I am a better peace-maker than most.

Of course you do, but that's your own cross to bear. I didn't expect that you would agree.

Ditto.

 

[Defiant47]

Has anyone ever even considered that the only people who would be appeased are those who are so ignorant and bigoted against Muslims that it wouldn't make a difference?

"OK, so we'll move out so that instead of being hated by these people, we'll... still be hated by these people."

Anyone intelligent enough to be affected by and appreciate the gesture of not building the Mosque there would also be intelligent enough to realize that these Muslims have absolutely no connection to the Muslims who perpetrated 9/11.

 

[BSmith1068]

I dont really 'know' about it. But all I can say, as a military, thus governmental entity, its mandated to treat all religions equally.

Read up on it. At least 4 people have linked to articles regarding the Pentagon chapel that should give you all the info you need. Pleading ignorance is a sorry cop-out to this argument.

I also disagree that the Pentagon attack carries the emotional weight of the WTC towers coming down and witnessing people jumping from them. While both occurred on 9/11 they are simply not equal in emotional weight as far as the nation is concerned.

Do you agree with that? I should hope so since its fairly common sense to admit it.

I disagree. I live less than 3 miles from the Pentagon and drive 300 feet from where the plane hit the building every day on my way to work. I used to work for American Airlines at the time of the attack, and the plane that hit the Pentagon was one of ours. One of my colleagues closed the door on the flight when it left Dulles Airport.

Additionally, if it wasn’t for the brave actions of a few passengers on the United Airlines flight 93, who knows what other catastrophe would have happened in my home town.

Just because it didn’t kill as many people, or have the same level of damage doesn’t lessen the emotional impact of the event.