Plan for Mosque III...

[Ajidica]

No I said that there is a real connection of some sort between Al-Qaeda and Islam. The degree of offence taken by that connection is entirely subjective, and if taken too far may be considered irrational. But the connection and some level of offence in the area of Ground Zero is not inherently irrational as you are claiming.

How far must the mosque be before taking offense is considered irrational again?

 

[Ayn Rand]

At this point, Rand's argument have pretty much devolved into repeatedly asserting that "a lot of people don't like the mosque"

That's not an argument but a statement of fact [ie most people are which is established and requires no argument. That's why this thread was started]. What the argument is about, is whether that offence has any rational basis, or is irrational. And if either, to what extent.

It's the nature of the offence and its justifications that we are analysing, read the last few pages of posting if you haven't already.

How far must the mosque be before taking offense is considered irrational again?

That's subjective. Although I've heard you argue that subjectivism is a stronger form of knowledge than reasoning about an objective reality

@Newbunkle - we've been over the argument you made in your post, read the last few pages.

 

[Ajidica]

Can you give me a sentence on why you personaly feel they should not be allowed to build the mosque. You have said how much you like definitions. Lets see one.

EDIT: How come 2 blocks isn't a subjective distance for irrational hatred to become 'rational'? Why is 2 more important than 1?

 

[Formaldehyde]

Americans are not afraid of mosques.

Some Americans are obviously afraid of mosques based on the number of completely irrational responses to mosques and hate crimes throughout the US since 9/11.

They are offended by this one mosque

54% don't think it is a good idea to build the facility. 22% think the subject is very important. The rest do not. That means far less than 20% are likely offended by it.

 

[Forty-Two]

54% don't think it is a good idea. 22% think the subject is very important. The rest do not. That means far less than 20% are actually offended by it.

Care to link to that to prove you are not pulling those numbers out of your ass?

 

[Ajidica]

Its probably from here:
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/poll_082510.pdf?tag=contentMain;contentBody

 

[Formaldehyde]

Care to link to that to prove you are not pulling those numbers out of your ass?

It's been linked before. Google it yourself if you think I'm "pulling numbers out of my ass".

 

[Forty-Two]

Its probably from here:
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/poll_082510.pdf?tag=contentMain;contentBody

Thank you.

 

[Ayn Rand]

Can you give me a sentence on why you personaly feel they should not be allowed to build the mosque. You have said how much you like definitions. Lets see one.

EDIT: How come 2 blocks isn't a subjective distance for irrational hatred to become 'rational'? Why is 2 more important than 1?

A single sentence? Here goes:

Even if most people living by a flag or symbol are friends, no self-respecting culture can allow that flag to be raised over a war monument [or similar symbolic memorial] if that flag or symbol was used in some way to kill the people for whom the monument or symbol is a reminder.

Sorry if that's vague.

For your second question, that's totally a leading question.

@Forty-two, keep posting

 

[Formaldehyde]

I guess it's a good think nobody is trying to raise a "Muslim flag" over "Ground Zero".

 

[useless]

You see, the Muslims wish to take over, with their different culture!

 

[dannyshenanigan]

Let me try to flesh out what the level-headed worst case scenario is for building this community center.

-The community center is built, a mosque is later added inside.
-People visit the site of ground zero, they can't see the mosque unless they walk two blocks and inside the community center.
-They are offended by seeing the mosque inside the community center, but they have to go out of their way to see it.

Because of this scenario people think that the builders of the community center should be bullied out of their right to freedom of religion and their property rights.

So what we have is property rights and freedom of religion vs. the "right" to not be offended, even if it means going out of your way to be offended in the first place

 

[cardgame]

Your analogy is terrible, Ayn, because even if such an event happened (ie Japan re-enacts Pearl Harbor) we still have the freedom of expression guaranteed by the first amendment.

 

[Traitorfish]

Even if most people living by a flag or symbol are friends, no self-respecting culture can allow that flag to be raised over a war monument [or similar symbolic memorial] if that flag or symbol was used in some way to kill the people for whom the monument or symbol is a reminder.

I'm not sure I understand this analogy; Ground Zero is the "monument", yes? And the community centre is the "flag"? But what "nation" (organisation?) is the "flag" taken to represent, and what involvement did it have with the killings in question? After all, flying, say, a French flag over a British WW2 memorial wouldn't be disrespectful or insulting, just a bit odd.

 

[Forty-Two]

I'm not sure I understand this analogy; Ground Zero is the "monument", yes? And the community centre is the "flag"? But what "nation" (organisation?) is the "flag" taken to represent, and what involvement did it have with the killings in question? After all, flying, say, a French flag over a British WW2 memorial wouldn't be disrespectful or insulting, just a bit odd.

Because putting something "silly" in a respectful place is not respectful? Not to say I don't support the mosque.

 

[Traitorfish]

Because putting something "silly" in a respectful place is not respectful? Not to say I don't support the mosque.

Well, remember, for the analogy to work properly, the French flag is actually across the street from the memorial, which isn't so much "silly" as it is "irrelevant".

 

[Forty-Two]

Well, remember, for the analogy to work properly, the French flag is actually across the street from the memorial, which isn't so much "silly" as it is "irrelevant".

Yes, but the way you said it was that the flag was actually OVER the memorial. That would be like putting the mosque right on the site the towers fell, which would be like putting a Walmart or Chuck-E-Cheese there. The fact that the mosque is so far away is what makes this argument so obvious.

 

[Ayn Rand]

I'm not sure I understand this analogy; Ground Zero is the "monument", yes? And the community centre is the "flag"? But what "nation" (organisation?) is the "flag" taken to represent, and what involvement did it have with the killings in question? After all, flying, say, a French flag over a British WW2 memorial wouldn't be disrespectful or insulting, just a bit odd.

I was giving my own personal reason, that's all. Ajidica kept raising it so I responded.

But I must have done something right with my arguments, as no-one is making accusations of irrationality or racism towards the "offended" group any more

 

[warpus]

It'd be kind of like a German book store opening 2 blocks away from the Warsaw ghetto, 10 years after the war, pretending for a second that Warsaw had a sizeable German minority at the time.

I'm sure some people would be upset, but unless some politicians started stirring up emotions, like they are here, I doubt it' be a "controversy"

 

[Traitorfish]

Yes, but the way you said it was that the flag was actually OVER the memorial. That would be like putting the mosque right on the site the towers fell, which would be like putting a Walmart or Chuck-E-Cheese there. The fact that the mosque is so far away is what makes this argument so obvious.

Well, yes, the second post was me revising the original, although not incorrectly.

I was giving my own personal reason, that's all.

But you reason didn't make any sense.

It'd be kind of like a German book store opening 2 blocks away from the Warsaw ghetto, 10 years after the war, pretending for a second that Warsaw had a sizeable German minority at the time.

New York City contains over six hundred thousand Muslims.