Post Feb 1st 2013 - bugs - Single Player

[Hydromancerx]

@Thunderbrd

I did not want a 1:1 ratio of science to gold. Mainly because many buildings improve over time. Thus the -gold can be sometimes worse or better than the science. Likewise many buildings have other factors not related to science. And like I said this is also applied to other types of buildings.

School of Scribes is in the case where its more expensive to get science at the rate of gold. Note this is independent of the slider and many other factors. Its a positive if you have maxed your slider and cannot produce any more science.

And yes commerce would be bad since it involves science and gold. And in your last paragraph that is right on. To benefit from the science buildings you need to have a balance budget. These are the types of dynamics in the Sim City games (specifically 4) where if you did not have a balanced budget then you could not pay for your schools and thus education would drop. If you balanced your income than schools could work right and your EQ would rise.

While we don't have exactly, that its close enough. This is one of the factors I loved in Sim City since it mirrors some real world dynamics. Such as government getting into debt and cannot pay for the nice things they built in more profitable times.

In short you have to be smart in how and what you build in your cities. There is a time and place for most every building, the trick is to build them at those times. For instance if you build only -gold buildings you are going to go bankrupt. But if you never build any then you are going to suffer from crime, disease, fire and other factors like low science and health.

 

[LeftBower]

@Hydro:

Regarding the recent building cost increases I think that they are a bit extreme. I looked into my issues with gold and it turns out that the cost changes were enough to subtract half of my income, ie that my issues were not bugs. That is overboard. And putting them on buildings that already had costs and come in the Classical era where gold isn't as abundant is also bad. The costs should be scaled back to what they were before. There are other ways (tech commerce modifiers, maintenance on castle and culture stuff) to reduce gold in a more managable way.

Can I ask how it makes any sense at all to take your gold, which if you're doing as well as you can is being converted to research at a rate of 1 for 1, at a % which can be adjusted at your option, and build a building which not only enforces that more gold is being converted to research (without the option provided by the slider) but is converted at a rate of approx 5 gold for 3 research? How, in any sense of imagination, would this be a positive building to have when if you simply don't build it, your conversion rate can be 1 for 1 (a far better conversion rate!) instead?

I do realize that there's a difference between gold and commerce and its a subtraction of gold rather than commerce and its not actually gold that can be converted to research but rather commerce but still... when the slider is enabling a 1-1 conversion rate it seems silly that just because the commerce has been converted to gold which can then not be converted to research without such a building that the conversion rate would be so bad through the building. Seems like you're taking a hard hit forever after building the library. If you could turn the functioning of the library off or on at will then I could understand this better.

In short, what this means is, if I'm running at 100% research and I have a gold surplus coming in, then great, I'm quite glad to have the Library built as its helping to convert that surplus into further research than 100% would normally allow. BUT if I ever have to drop the research rate at ALL, then I'm immediately regretting the Library being there because it means that I'd be getting more research for not having it. (and those Libraries could well be the reason I'm having to reduce my research rate - which means, in the end, that the Libraries I've built are actually reducing the amount of research I'm getting... ugh!)

At no stage should buildings that only give research ever effectively reduce your research. It's like learning how to write crippling your nations research (an issue I have occasionally) and such. If you can't find other gold sinks, perhaps have libraries, etc. take 5 gold *but* give an amount of research (small) per population point, making them a good idea in high population cities, but less important in rural nowhere.

Alternatively, the ability to turn buildings off would be acceptable - as a downside, perhaps unsupported buildings would have a chance of being demolished each turn - use it or lose it.

 

[Hydromancerx]

At no stage should buildings that only give research ever effectively reduce your research. It's like learning how to write crippling your nations research (an issue I have occasionally) and such. If you can't find other gold sinks, perhaps have libraries, etc. take 5 gold *but* give an amount of research (small) per population point, making them a good idea in high population cities, but less important in rural nowhere.

Alternatively, the ability to turn buildings off would be acceptable - as a downside, perhaps unsupported buildings would have a chance of being demolished each turn - use it or lose it.

Its not that its reducing your research its reducing your ability to pay for research. Remember there are other sliders too such as culture and espionage. And having all the sliders down gives gold.

If you don't like a building don't build it. Likewise if you have it you can always delete it in your city with the Abandon Building menu.

As for % that gets a bit tricky and even more skewed. It was a conscious decision to make most buildings straight +/- with fixed values. When we tried those, you would either get way too much or way to little. Thus only major buildings like banks or wonders still have some %.

I am really surprised that everyone is freaking out over the -gold increase. Seems like only yesterday people were complaining about too much gold. Use some of that surplus gold to pay for these buildings.

 

[AIAndy]

I am really surprised that everyone is freaking out over the -gold increase. Seems like only yesterday people were complaining about too much gold. Use some of that surplus gold to pay for these buildings.

The discussions of too much / not enough gold should be kept separate from discussions if a certain building is worth building or not.
A building has a hammer cost, an opportunity cost (you could have built something else instead) and running costs. The benefits of the building have to be strong enough for those costs to be worth constructing.

 

[Hydromancerx]

The discussions of too much / not enough gold should be kept separate from discussions if a certain building is worth building or not.
A building has a hammer cost, an opportunity cost (you could have built something else instead) and running costs. The benefits of the building have to be strong enough for those costs to be worth constructing.

Ok specifically with the School of Scribes when you you think its not worth building? And don't be like Joe and say -1 , I want a serious answer. Because I think -5 for +3: is not too much.

Note you also get +1, Can turn 1 citizen into Scientist, New Diplomatic Units get +1 XP and It required for Plato's Academy and Brahman Library.

 

[AIAndy]

Ok specifically with the School of Scribes when you you think its not worth building? And don't be like Joe and say -1 , I want a serious answer. Because I think -5 for +3: is not too much.

I have not played enough C2C in the last months to judge that well.

What gold and science percent modifiers do you expect to be in a city that builds this?

 

[Hydromancerx]

I have not played enough C2C in the last months to judge that well.

What gold and science percent modifiers do you expect to be in a city that builds this?

Optimal would be at 100% science. I think that a city that builds this would need either it or other cities picking up the slack in the way for gold. Note this is a juggling act on what you want to focus on. Such as unit maintenance and other -gold buildings.

I my experience it all depends upon the starting location, leader traits, civics and a bit of luck. Not to mention difficulty. In a Noble game I could probably afford these in every city with no problem. Especially if I build a market, bazaar and grocer too.

On deity level with terrible financial traits or poor production and a lousy location. Well science is the least of my priorities. However it is possible to get back to 100% if you don't over expand early on or have a butt load of subdued animals.

If I was building a new city I would not build it first. I would do food and production and work my way up. If I had enough money I would build the science next but if not I would do gold before science. And of course and trumps them since a sick and unhappy city is not going to help you.

In short science and culture become almost luxury properties that I only try to get if I can afford to. And it doesn't take a billion turns to make.

 

[AIAndy]

The actual gain of the building depends on:

• The maintenance modifier (lower is better)
• Inflation (lower is better)
• Gold modifiers in all cities (higher is better)
• Science modifiers in this city compared to science modifiers in all cities (higher in this city is better)

So how high is the maintenance modifier and inflation around the time you build this building?
To what gold and science modifiers do you have access to?
If your gold and science modifiers are considerably better (around 1.5 times the maintenance modifier and inflation), build this building. Otherwise increase the slider (of course if you have a surplus at 100% science slider then you can build it anyway but that is a situation we try to get away from anyway).

 

[Koshling]

The actual gain of the building depends on:

• The maintenance modifier (lower is better)
• Inflation (lower is better)
• Gold modifiers in all cities (higher is better)
• Science modifiers in this city compared to science modifiers in all cities (higher in this city is better)

So how high is the maintenance modifier and inflation around the time you build this building?
To what gold and science modifiers do you have access to?
If your gold and science modifiers are considerably better (around 1.5 times the maintenance modifier and inflation), build this building. Otherwise increase the slider (of course if you have a surplus at 100% science slider then you can build it anyway but that is a situation we try to get away from anyway).

Considering education buildings specifically, look to the real world. An educated population is required not just to have research activities, but for industry, efficient agriculture (to a lesser extent), efficient government...

I'd say model the knock-on effects of education by having the (costly) primary education buildings (like school of scribes early on) be pre-reqs for some of the commerce/production buildings of the time (or to provide bonus modifiers to those buildings).

Thus school of scribes boosts output of (say) tablet maker by 20%. A school (later era) boosts factory output by 5%...that kind of thing.

 

[LumenAngel]

School of Scribes worth -3 for me.
A building woth it if it cost less than half I gain from it. I dont care about the production cost and all : when it's built, it's built. Plus, a wonder give it for free in all city.
+3 :science +1 :culture worth 4 * modifier. When I have it, its at least a +30% each, so 5.33
I play heavily with Scientist (more than Priest), so lets' add +1. The XP bonus for diplomatic units... Still no Diplomats units, so I dont count it.
6.33/2 -> Worth a -3. The cost it had before...

And just a minor bug : all my cities have at least 2 lines "Some building are making us happy" when I pass my mouse to have the hapyness detail.

I am really surprised that everyone is freaking out over the -gold increase. Seems like only yesterday people were complaining about too much gold. Use some of that surplus gold to pay for these buildings.

For me, gold is OK in prehistoric/Ancien and star to have a problem late classical/medieval. School of scribe is too early to have a big maintenance cost. It cost more than an Anthropoly Lab!
If you want more maintenance cost, I wonder why a castle is for free ^^

 

[Koshling]

In my current game I lack iron (and copper too ). I captured a city from an AI that has iron, and it turns out he had an ironsmith in the city concerned. Suddenly I can build iron-based units even though I have no source of iron ingots! The ironsmith in the captured city never de-activated due to lack of its required (iron ingots) bonus.

It turns out that nothing checks for required bonuses on buildings except when it is first built! I'll be pushing a fix to this to SVN shortly - it only really has a major effect with the new ore->ingots->wares chains, but it's very significant now we have those.

 

[Taxman66]

The gold concerns is to be carefull of overcompensation. I'm seeing multiple people applying differing 'soloutions'.

As Joesph will also note the gold situation is also very dependent upon the speed of the game and traits of your leader.

 

[Thunderbrd]

@Thunderbrd

I did not want a 1:1 ratio of science to gold. Mainly because many buildings improve over time. Thus the -gold can be sometimes worse or better than the science. Likewise many buildings have other factors not related to science. And like I said this is also applied to other types of buildings.

School of Scribes is in the case where its more expensive to get science at the rate of gold. Note this is independent of the slider and many other factors. Its a positive if you have maxed your slider and cannot produce any more science.

And yes commerce would be bad since it involves science and gold. And in your last paragraph that is right on. To benefit from the science buildings you need to have a balance budget. These are the types of dynamics in the Sim City games (specifically 4) where if you did not have a balanced budget then you could not pay for your schools and thus education would drop. If you balanced your income than schools could work right and your EQ would rise.

While we don't have exactly, that its close enough. This is one of the factors I loved in Sim City since it mirrors some real world dynamics. Such as government getting into debt and cannot pay for the nice things they built in more profitable times.

In short you have to be smart in how and what you build in your cities. There is a time and place for most every building, the trick is to build them at those times. For instance if you build only -gold buildings you are going to go bankrupt. But if you never build any then you are going to suffer from crime, disease, fire and other factors like low science and health.

You actually, between this post and all the successive posts, make a pretty good case. It's just fairly counterintuitive is all but in the way you've explained it, I do like it. Much of the philosophy behind this should be put to Game Strategy text in the pedia to help clear up some confusion from new players who will look at this and scratch their heads in a desperate attempt to understand how the math plays out here (particularly since it will still be new for those coming in from Vanilla BtS that there's a difference between commerce and gold at all!)

Considering education buildings specifically, look to the real world. An educated population is required not just to have research activities, but for industry, efficient agriculture (to a lesser extent), efficient government...

I'd say model the knock-on effects of education by having the (costly) primary education buildings (like school of scribes early on) be pre-reqs for some of the commerce/production buildings of the time (or to provide bonus modifiers to those buildings).

Thus school of scribes boosts output of (say) tablet maker by 20%. A school (later era) boosts factory output by 5%...that kind of thing.

I love this thinking. There are two effects of education, one is to promote and guide society into invention and discovery and pushing the envelope on what is known and understood (the way research is currently viewed in Civ) and the other is what you state here: Education levels of the people can vastly impact the skill and proficiency in which they perform the basic everyday jobs necessary for a functioning society.

This kind of thinking should perhaps not be based, however, on arbitrary assignments to adjustments to all sorts of buildings (works for now I suppose) but should perhaps become a measurable common value for the civilization (Call it Literacy or something along those lines.) Then we take the ultimate Yield and Commerce incomes and scale them according to a Literacy modifier.

Literacy would sit at a base 100 (for 100%) and would have a natural decay pattern in each city that grows with population (something like -1 per pop). The decay would decrease (or increase if its been pushed into the positive) the Literacy level each round. Truly intellectually useless (or even intellectually harmful) pursuit buildings (Brothels for example) could increase Literacy decay rate, while other buildings like School of Scribes and Libraries and such, would enable the civ builder to reverse the process. It'd be tricky in our building designs to get things to balance right in this system but we should make it difficult, but not impossible, to even gain a positive Literacy modifier (over 100).

I suppose all this could be done based on a bit of programming and the use of a property, no? Cool thing about using it as a property would be that it could be trade influenced and have a diffusion effect, which education does tend to diffuse throughout a population of social beings.

(side note: maybe this should all get moved to a new thread huh?)

 

[LumenAngel]

Look like last SVN have a problem of save compatibility...
I cant load my last game save with new SVN

Maybe because I was with Slavery Civics?

Message "Save Format is not compatible due to missing class EVENTTRIGGER_SLAVE_REVOLT"

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Literacy is already calculated and reported on somewhere.

 

[Koshling]

Look like last SVN have a problem of save compatibility...
I cant load my last game save with new SVN

Maybe because I was with Slavery Civics?

Message "Save Format is not compatible due to missing class EVENTTRIGGER_SLAVE_REVOLT"

That's probably because slave revolts no longer exist (latest assets - I imagine they were removed when the slavery civic was taken out??), but there has been one at some point in you game, and when it tries to restore the event history it can't. Post the save please and I'll make the DLL change so that it accepts historical events that don't exist by simply forgetting they ever happened...

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Slave (and Peasant) revolts were taken out because if you have The Great Wall they would not affect you. These events increased to power of the wonder too much.

 

[LumenAngel]

That's probably because slave revolts no longer exist (latest assets - I imagine they were removed when the slavery civic was taken out??), but there has been one at some point in you game, and when it tries to restore the event history it can't. Post the save please and I'll make the DLL change so that it accepts historical events that don't exist by simply forgetting they ever happened...

Yes, at least 3 revolts in my actual game.
here come the save

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Optimal would be at 100% science.

Why? No government puts that much of their tax income into science. They have to pay for defense and maintenance of their nation (military, police, firefighters, teachers and so on).

A balanced budget is not 100% science or even science+culture+espionage = 100%. It is having a positive bank balance and any positive income, even if your science is at 0% ( tax rate is 100%).

BTW I repeat - I hate the SimCity series.

 

[ls612]

Why? No government puts that much of their tax income into science. They have to pay for defense and maintenance of their nation (military, police, firefighters, teachers and so on).

A balanced budget is not 100% science or even science+culture+espionage = 100%. It is having a positive bank balance and any positive income, even if your science is at 0% ( tax rate is 100%).

But you are already paying for that with city maintenance, civic upkeep, and unit costs. Any surplus can be invested in other stuff.