Postmortem on Mueller

[Arakhor]

Este and I were discussing his idea of publishing everyone's taxes, my argument was handing out that information will result in more self segregation as liberals and conservatives move away from potential nearby criminals targeting them for their political views. If you lived in Norway and your taxes identified you as a supporter of Jewish causes wouldn't you feel unsafe if your neighbors were anti-semitic? If money was the only thing being reported I'd still oppose his idea, how much I make or dont make is not my neighbor's business.

Even if we assume that recording your income also recorded every single donation you'd ever made, someone would need to go to wherever it was stored, obtain and trawl through all those records and then put their nefarious plan into action. Anyone willing to go to that much effort will find a way to hurt you, regardless of what venue they are using.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

He did this because he failed to deliver what he had been commissioned to.

Explain how he failed to deliver.

 

[Estebonrober]

Even if we assume that recording your income also recorded every single donation you'd ever made, someone would need to go to wherever it was stored, obtain and trawl through all those records and then put their nefarious plan into action. Anyone willing to go to that much effort will find a way to hurt you, regardless of what venue they are using.

Which is kind of my point, by the time this is an issue the nation has gone to far for it to matter. Meanwhile in times of peace this would lead to clarity on so many levels it can only help law abiding citizens exponentially. As my neighbor it is actually directly my business to know if you can afford the property you claim to own.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Okay, so the 10 instances was his evidence of obstruction but he wouldn't call it criminal. The dossier was the most important element of the FISA warrant on Page. Throughout this time Trump attacked the investigation as a witch hunt, a hoax. He was right. Mueller cleared him of conspiracy. So we're left with obstructing a crime that didn't happen. Yes I know obstruction doesn't need a crime, but it does require intent. Right?

Trump obstructed an investigation. Any intent is related to affecting the investigation and to those in any way connected to it. Offering a pardon to a witness in obstructing the investigation. Trying to fire the head of the investigation is obstructing it.

Generally, obstruction charges are laid when it is discovered that a non-suspect person has lied to the investigating officers. Obstruction charges can also be laid if a person alters or destroys physical evidence, even if s/he was under no compulsion to produce such evidence, at any time. Obstruction of justice is a broad concept that extends to any effort to prevent the execution of lawful process or the administration of justice in either a criminal or civil matter. Obstructive conduct also includes the intimidation of potential witnesses or retaliation against actual witnesses, the preparation of false testimony or other evidence, or the interference with jurors or other court personnel. The purpose of criminal obstruction statutes is to protect the integrity of legal proceedings and, at the same time, protect those individuals who participate in such proceedings.

The principal statutes in this area contained in chapter 73 of United States Code Title 18 are:

• section 1501 (misdemeanor to obstruct a federal process or writ server);
• section 1502 (misdemeanor to obstruct or resist an extradition agent);
• section 1503 (felony provision that targets efforts to influence or injure a court officer or juror, as well as other obstructionary efforts);
• section 1504 (misdemeanor to influence a juror by writing);
• section 1505 (felony to obstruct proceedings before departments, agencies, committees);
• section 1506 (felony to steal or alter a court record or provide a phony bail surety);
• section 1507 (misdemeanor to picket or parade with the intent of impeding or obstructing the administration of justice);
• section 1508 (misdemeanor to record or observe proceedings of grand or petit juries while deliberating or voting);
• section 1509 (misdemeanor to obstruct court orders); section 1510 (felony to obstruct criminal investigations);
• section 1511 (felony to obstruct state or local law enforcement with the intent to facilitate an illegal gambling business);
• section 1512 (felony to tamper with a witness, victim, or informant);
• section 1513 (felony to retaliate against a witness, victim, or informant);
• section 1516 (felony to obstruct a federal audit);
• section 1517 (felony to obstruct the examination of a financial institution); and
• section 1518 (felony to obstruct a criminal investigation of health care offenses.

Section 1503 offers broad protection to the “due administration of justice” by stating that a person who “corruptly or by threats of force, or by threatening letter or communication, influences, obstructs, or impedes, or endeavors to influence, obstruct, or impede, the due administration of justice” is guilty of the crime of obstruction of justice.

The government must prove that there was a pending federal judicial proceeding, the defendant knew of the proceeding, and the defendant had corrupt intent to interfere with or attempted to interfere with the proceeding, in order to obtain a conviction under section 1503. Under the statute, actual obstruction is not necessary as an element of proof to sustain a conviction. The defendant’s endeavor to obstruct justice is sufficient. The courts define “endeavor” as an effort to accomplish the purpose the statute was enacted to prevent.

You will notice the bold part at the end. To obstruct, you don't have to be successful, just make the effort.

There's a couple of good articles about what Mueller could have done, I think he could have done more than leave everyone arguing about what he thought of impeachment. Starr did much more, he found evidence of felonies and provided the details to the courts and Clinton was charged. From what I understand Mueller's report is limited to identifying actions by Trump that could be interpreted as obstruction or oversight. The reason obstruction runs into trouble is Trump never ordered anyone to stop the investigation. But he did exercise oversight and bias was exposed in both the justification for the spying and the ensuing investigation by Mueller.

It is not about stopping the investigation; it is about interfering with it. Dangling a pardon to Michael Cohen is obstruction.

Yes Mueller could have done more or differently. He disappointed me. I am waiting on the SDNY and NY state.

 

[innonimatu]

Explain how he failed to deliver.

He was to have goaded Trump into firing him. That would have provided "proof" of his guilt. He could have gone after his family, hard. But he balked at that. Probably because Trump was establishing enough alliances in Washington to survive the whole thing. Then Mueller's survival instincts kicked in. When Barr was successfully recruited by Trump the writing was on the wall: Trump was now blessed by enough cliques in Washington that a coup became impossible. And he had competent people willing to go after those who tried to continue it.

If you've been noticing, Trump started countering the coup against him by seeking support from the military. But realized that real influence in Washington politics was in the political groupings, the military are very much under civilian command rather than active actors. So he dumped the military and moved on to the israeli lobby, the neocons... Trump is not senile, this kind of intrigue is one thing he proved much better at than his opponents expected. Unfortunately the democrats' attempts to topple him pushed him into alliances with the worst of the worst in Washington. It only made things worse.

The leadership of the Democratic Party are the most incompetent bunch of political clowns active in the western today. Even more than the tories in the UK.
They learned nothing from the fight over that supreme court nomination. I think that Trump got people like Barr to side with him because of how he acted on that one: he stuck to his chosen appointment, told his party to back it, and got it trough. It won him votes, and it won him the admiration of certain conservative circles, people who had previously viewed him with contempt.

 

[rah]

All fine and all, but the only thing that saved Trump is a majority in the Senate. This whole story would be totally different with out it.
Let's not pretend anything else.

 

[onejayhawk]

No. It means that he can't exonerate Trump because Trump is a suspected perpetrator of a crime. Mueller is prevented both from saying that he committed a crime, and charging him with a crime by the DOJ.

Note the special emphasis on saying that he committed a crime. Mueller is effectively muzzled by the DOJ, and because the report is in the hands of a traitor like Barr and heavily redacted, Mueller can't speak to the specifics of the report because it hasn't been, and most likely, will never be fully released until Trump is safely out of office. If even then.

But hey, your mileage may vary in your little corner of the world.

The bolded is incorrect and could not be more further from correct. Far from being muzzled, his statements were given full play and a broad audience. We are, after all, talking about it. He was asked more than once if there was any charge he would have brought aside from the guidelines. He repeatedly said no.

Also, remember that Mueller helped with the redaction. Over 90% is unredacted and the fully unredacted version is available to Members of Congress. Very few have bothered. There is no there, there.

J

 

[innonimatu]

All fine and all, but the only thing that saved Trump is a majority in the Senate. This whole story would be totally different with out it.
Let's not pretend anything else.

And who handed him the opportunity to play the role of conservative champion, and made the political theater that mobilized the conservative vote just before those elections?

I said it before the election that doing a dirty campaign of unprovable accusations to attempt to block that appointment was going to backfire. It did.

 

[rah]

Oh, you mean the announcement of more emails being investigated in the Hillary issue.

 

[innonimatu]

No, I mean the midterms and the Kavanaugh circus.

 

[rah]

The clowns were already in place by then.

 

[Arakhor]

The clowns were already in place by then.

I believe you said to me that facts mean nothing to his apologists.

 

[Lemon Merchant]

The bolded is incorrect and could not be more further from correct. Far from being muzzled, his statements were given full play and a broad audience. We are, after all, talking about it. He was asked more than once if there was any charge he would have brought aside from the guidelines. He repeatedly said no.

Also, remember that Mueller helped with the redaction. Over 90% is unredacted and the fully unredacted version is available to Members of Congress. Very few have bothered. There is no there, there.

J

I have no doubt that he was told by the DOJ "This is what you can say, and this is what you cannot say." As long as that report remains unreleased in it's unredacted form, he is muzzled.

 

[cardgame]

I'd still like to know how the DOJ can enforce their internal policy on this matter. Is it illegal? Or is it just a 'we don't do that here'? [If] Trump is guilty, you're gonna let some silly rules stop you?

 

[Berzerker]

Even if we assume that recording your income also recorded every single donation you'd ever made, someone would need to go to wherever it was stored, obtain and trawl through all those records and then put their nefarious plan into action. Anyone willing to go to that much effort will find a way to hurt you, regardless of what venue they are using.

Zealots are zealots, that effort cleanses their souls. Public tax returns and the internet are a gold mine for bigots. Imagine living in Norway next to that mass murderer while he's combing thru your taxes to see if you're one of 'them'. We're not required to report donations but we do if we want the deduction. People who dont want others knowing if they gave to some locally unpopular cause could just not report it, but then they're subsidizing popular speech. We're a little off topic

Which is kind of my point, by the time this is an issue the nation has gone to far for it to matter. Meanwhile in times of peace this would lead to clarity on so many levels it can only help law abiding citizens exponentially. As my neighbor it is actually directly my business to know if you can afford the property you claim to own.

Its a form of gerrymandering, but why is it your business? Somebody owns it, you dont. I'd still oppose publicizing taxes but I would have fewer objections if it was limited to gross income and nothing else.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

He was to have goaded Trump into firing him.

That was not his goal. He was to investigate Russian interference in the election at a minimum and he did that.

Explain how he is a failure.

I'd still like to know how the DOJ can enforce their internal policy on this matter. Is it illegal? Or is it just a 'we don't do that here'? [If] Trump is guilty, you're gonna let some silly rules stop you?

It's hardcore 'we don't do that here' and the courts have not tested it and Congress never acted to countermand that memo.

 

[Estebonrober]

Its a form of gerrymandering

Ok, I like this response, elaborate on this thought please.

I've already demonstrated why it is in the interest of all involved.

 

[Berzerker]

Trump obstructed an investigation. Any intent is related to affecting the investigation and to those in any way connected to it. Offering a pardon to a witness in obstructing the investigation. Trying to fire the head of the investigation is obstructing it.

I agree Trump engaged in potentially criminal behavior and might have crossed the obstruction line, but he has an out. I guess what I'm saying is the investigation was the fruit of a poisonous tree, the warrant on Page was unethical and possibly criminal and invalidates the obstruction charge because someone - and it fell to Trump - had to oversee what was already a corrupted process. It was a bad warrant, Trump was justified making sure the people responsible were not in charge. They have a conflict too and needed to recuse themselves, Trump made sure they left. He looked like a total jerk doing it, but now I'm understanding why he was so pissed off at these people serving as an arm of the Clinton campaign and their 'dossier'.

I think this is a loser for the Dems, when people find out they're going to see how dirty politics led to the investigation and that will put 'obstruction' in context. The best thing the Dems can do is censure him or something. Impeachment will bring all this stuff to light, Trump's accusations of hoax and witch hunt will resonate. And the Dems will blame 'bad intel' as Steele is exposed as a fraud. It appears the reason why Trump hates McCain is he had ties to Steele and was spreading the dossier. Regarding the definition of obstruction, all that assumes the investigation is valid, morally and/or legally. Evidence gets tossed all the time for invalid warrants or illegal searches.

Ok, I like this response, elaborate on this thought please.

Gerrymandering seeks to concentrate people based on ideology, publishing tax returns will have the same effect as people have reason to segregate even more because now the neighbors know how you vote with your dollars. Might as well require bumper stickers for the person you voted for.

I have no doubt that he was told by the DOJ "This is what you can say, and this is what you cannot say." As long as that report remains unreleased in it's unredacted form, he is muzzled.

I'd still like to know how the DOJ can enforce their internal policy on this matter. Is it illegal? Or is it just a 'we don't do that here'? [If] Trump is guilty, you're gonna let some silly rules stop you?

I think Mueller cant stand Trump but I also think Mueller knows the investigation was corrupt from the start. He would love to nail Trump but he knows Clinton oppo research was the basis for the spying on the Trump crowd and that Trump had a valid reason to 'obstruct'. So Mueller cited the evidence of possible obstruction without calling it criminal. Or maybe I'm projecting my bias onto him.

 

[Estebonrober]

Gerrymandering seeks to concentrate people based on ideology, publishing tax returns will have the same effect as people have reason to segregate even more because now the neighbors know how you vote with your dollars. Might as well require bumper stickers for the person you voted for.

As a person who lives in an area completely dominated by Trump supporters (ie Republicans to the level of gross (personal take obviously)) I can confidently say that's not how this works yet and as for bumper stickers yet I wouldn't put a political sticker on my car for anything. Its important that this goes beyond the political donation aspect and would play a critical role in making capitalism better since it would inform all workers how much they are actually worth. That s a bloody big deal.

 

[Berzerker]

https://stream.org/christopher-steeles-deposition-shows-little-research-target/

Our intrepid spy

This guy fabricated a conspiracy to help Clinton and it turned into a FISA warrant to spy on her political opponents. I remember how the media was portraying him as some hero riding a white stallion saving democracy from Trump and the Russians. Red Scare round #2 - sir have you ever spoken with a Russian?