President Hugo Chavez dead at 58

[Arakhor]

My first reaction was, "at least he's out of office for good now", but that doesn't mean that I would wish him ill or ask for anyone to die.

 

[Winner]

Good news and good riddance!

 

[TheLastOne36]

Whatever you do, don't mention that most people will apparently be having just the opposite reaction in Venezuela. But many the right wingers will certainly be celebrating, as they are in the US and elsewhere.

Of course they are. The Chavistas are some of the most vocal and loudest groups I've ever encountered. Also the most stupid on average but that's a personal opinion.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Someone isn't affecting your life, therefore you don't care about them?

This doesn't strike me as an example I should follow.

See below...

Another person dies, was he a puppet to US?

Meanwhile we shed our tears for this man, 50,000 ppl died around the world by starvation or ill health, today.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Quick informal poll:
How many people here know Chávez lead a military coup attempt in the 1990's to overthrow a democratic government?

I'm guessing none of his fans.

The question is why weren't you so critical of other military coups in South and Central America, as well as the rest of the world?

Of course they are. The Chavistas are some of the most vocal and loudest groups I've ever encountered. Also the most stupid on average but that's a personal opinion.

I wasn't referring to his most vocal supporters. i was referring to the average Venezuelan who likely considers such statements by the Chavez haters in the same sort of light.

Are you also going to as vehemently hate the next president who will also likely be a leftist instead of a rightist?

 

[luiz]

I wasn't referring to his most vocal supporters. i was referring to the average Venezuelan who likely considers such statements by the Chavez haters in the same sort of light.

There is no such thing as "average Venezuelan". Roughly half of Venezuela hates Chávez. Roughly half loves him. What is the average? Indifference?

Americans in particular have this odd notion that Latin Americans are a facelass mass of people always chanting some socialist slogan and carrying a poster of their favorite caudillo. You know, there are millions of educated, middle class Venezuelans more than capable of critical thinking and who do not take part in that circus. They rather hate Chávez and everything he represents; and they also hate the American idiots who praise Chávez while living in the comfort of modern capitalism.

 

[luiz]

The question is why weren't you so critical of other military coups in South and Central America?

Because I wasn't born when they happened?

I don't like any dictatorships.

 

[Formaldehyde]

You were certainly alive during the Honduras one, which you seemed to have been quite in favor. And you didn't seem to criticize either Chile or even the Brazilian coups all that much during past discussions, if at all. I also seriously doubt you find anything wrong with the 1953 Iranian coup as well. "I'm guessing" it has far more to do with whether or not it is a leftist or rightist coup.

Chavez also only had 10% of the support of the military during the first coup attempt and apparently not much more during the second attempt, so it is somewhat disingenuous to try to characterize it as a "military coup".

Pérez was also forced out of office soon afterwards for embezzling 250 million bolivars, and the coup plotters were pardoned.

Besides, what does being alive have to do with history? You don't think it is significant because you weren't born yet? You used to have Che Guevara as a moniker because you hated him so much, even though he died long before you were born.

 

[luiz]

A translation of a post on Chávez made on a blog I read, which sums up all there is to say (translation by me)

Hugo Chávez, the bully who lead a failed military coup in the 1990's, elected president under a Law and Order platform, to later mutate into a classic populist of the "Latin American idiot" kind, was one of the most harmful politicians of recent Latin American history.

His strategy to perpetuate himself in power followed some of the major lessons taught by Castro: an exception regime can perpetuate itself if it succeeds in exiling the intellectuals, the entrepreneurs and the non-conformists fro m the country. When he understood that the main obstacle to his project of rule for decades was the middle class and the entrepreneurs, he took all efforts to destroy them in their country. To frighten the Jews, he sent his militias to storm with machine guns into a Jewish school in Caracas. To frighten the entrepreneurs, he threatened them with expropriation and did expropriate. To frighten civil servants, he published lists of opposition voters and demanded oaths of loyalty to the revolution. To frighten the middle class in general, he shrugged off the sky rocketing murder and criminality rates of his country. To control the main focuses of power, he dismissed the destruction of the productive capacity of the state-owned oil company PDVSA, which he packed with cronies. To make it clear that democracy and individual freedoms were values he hated, he never measured efforts to aid the Cuban dictatorship with Venezuelan taxpayer money, and many other blood-thirsty dictators got at least diplomatic support, from Assad to Mugabe.

In the economic sphere, he was a monumental failure. Despite the great increase in oil prices, which tremendously helped him (he was elected partly because of the crisis his country was through due to the low oil prices of the 1990's) he didn't manage to expand production nor save any part of the gains. The Venezuelan economy under all his time couldn't escape high inflation, nor did it grow fast. From 1998 to 2012, the Venezuelan economy grew at an average rate of 3% per year, while Argentina, Brazil, Chile and Colombia all grew between 4.1 and 5.8% per year.

For all those achievements, may he rest in peace

 

[Formaldehyde]

There is no such thing as "average Venezuelan". Roughly half of Venezuela hates Chávez. Roughly half loves him. What is the average? Indifference?

No, less than half voted against him. I doubt it is much more than a fringe group of the far-right who actually hated him, much like in the US and other countries.

 

[luiz]

You were certainly alive during the Honduras one, which you seemed to have been quite in favor. And you didn't seem to criticize either Chile or even the Brazilian coups all that much, if at all, in the past. I also seriously doubt you find anything wrong with the 1953 Iranian coup as well. "I'm guessing" it has far more to do with whether or not it is a leftist or rightist coup.

Chavez also only had 10% of the support of the military during the first coup attempt and apparently not much more during the second attempt, so it is somewhat disingenuous to try to characterize it as a "military coup".

Pérez was also forced out of office soon afterwards for embezzling 250 million bolivars, and the coup plotters were pardoned.

Don't project your own hypocrisy to me. I have made it clear on several posts that I do not endorse dictatorships even when they follow economic policies I mostly approve, like Pinochet (the Brazilian military regime, especially after 1968, followed economic policies that I detest, so I have absolutely no reason to like them on any grounds).

As for Honduras, it was not a military coup nor even a coup. It was a legal impeachment, approved by Congress and the Supreme Court.

How can you compare that with what Chávez attempted, consisting of tanks on the streets, troops storming government building and people dying?

And how is the fact that he did not secure overwhelming military support makes it a non-military coup? The coup was entirely military; there were tanks on the streets and he tried to seize power by force, not by Congress or legal maneuvering.

That he was pardoned only speaks of the magnanimity of the Venezuelan democracy he tried to destroy. Isn't it funny that same regime he tried to destroy through violence not only pardoned him but allowed him to be elected President?

 

[luiz]

No, less than half voted against him. I doubt it is much more than a fringe group of the far-right who actually hated him, much like in the US and other countries.

Of course you'd think that; you're a far-left extremist who knows nothing of Venezuela.

The media you follow probably never mentioned the mass protests against him, the huge strikes against his government that paralyzed the nation, the opposition victory on the Congressional elections which was nullified by gerrymandering, etc etc.

No, the outlets you read only post pictures of hordes of people on red shirts carrying photos of the Dear Leader.

 

[Formaldehyde]

I'm the "extremist" for merely pointing out the blatant hypocrisy of the far-right in such matters?

I'm the one who is now apparently claiming the US media has been engaged in a disinformation campaign about him?

I'm the one who is calling him a "Dear Leader" because he feels so emotional about this?

There is much I don't particularly like about Hugo Chavez during the years he served as president. But I can also see that he accomplished much for the common Venezuelan by using the natural resources of his country for them, instead of allowing the rich to just get even richer to the detriment of most others in the country. For that reason there are some who will inevitably hate him, just as they hate all other socialists and even liberals.

Some even hate moderates who simply disagree with them.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

you're a far-left extremist

Come now, don't try and pin him on us.

Don't project your own hypocrisy to me. I have made it clear on several posts that I do not endorse dictatorships even when they follow economic policies I mostly approve, like Pinochet (the Brazilian military regime, especially after 1968, followed economic policies that I detest, so I have absolutely no reason to like them on any grounds).

The wording I remember was, right wing dictatorships are to be preferred to left-wing dictatorships because they kill less people.

That he was pardoned only speaks of the magnanimity of the Venezuelan democracy he tried to destroy. Isn't it funny that same regime he tried to destroy through violence not only pardoned him but allowed him to be elected President?

Do you not regard this as a fantastic failure on their part for having done so?

 

[Murky]

It's sad when people die, but lots of people die. His legacy will out live him but who knows how long that can last.

 

[luiz]

Come now, don't try and pin him on us.

Sorry about that.

The wording I remember was, right wing dictatorships are to be preferred to left-wing dictatorships because they kill less people.

That was a bit of a generalization from my part, but broadly speaking, yeah.

Do you not regard this as a fantastic failure on their part for having done so?

With the advantage of foresight, yeah. At the time it probably seemed like the right move. Vindictiveness is always bad and does not work well in a democracy; OTOH failure to properly defend a democracy may lead to its erosion and eventual overthrow. It's a tricky issue.

 

[Agent327]

A great hero of the Latin American common man is finally at peace after a long struggle with cancer. This will be a major blow to the Latin American anti-imperialist movement, I do not know enough about Maduro to know if he can rise to the occasion for Venezuela, much less to try and fill the shoes of Chavez.

Maybe they can import a Castro?

right wing dictatorships are to be preferred to left-wing dictatorships because they kill less people.

Mmmm no, Mao still tops the bill. Nobody even comes close.

 

[TheLastOne36]

I wasn't referring to his most vocal supporters. i was referring to the average Venezuelan who likely considers such statements by the Chavez haters in the same sort of light.

I'll echo what Luiz said. The average Venezuelan

Are you also going to as vehemently hate the next president who will also likely be a leftist instead of a rightist?

I am not Luiz. I personally lean left of center and am fully supportive of the opposition's platform and Capriles, who are both left of center.

I don't really care if the next government leans right or left so long as it isn't a debauched tyrannical populist and economically harmful regime like that of Chavez.

No, less than half voted against him. I doubt it is much more than a fringe group of the far-right who actually hated him, much like in the US and other countries.

I don't think the elections were rigged personally, but Venezuela is definitely a shining example of an illiberal democracy. The game itself was heavily rigged against the opposition. The fact that the opposition got so much votes is a testament of how strong the opposition to Chavez's regime actually was.


And definitely no. The far right aren't the only group that hates Chavez. The entire middle-class that wasn't directly aided by his policies hated him. He was the scrooge of small-businesses in the country, alongside big foreign businesses that previously employed millions of middle class Venezuelans.

 

[Core Imposter]

So what, Form is in mourning over this guy?

Well, of course.

 

[Core Imposter]

No, less than half voted against him. I doubt it is much more than a fringe group of the far-right who actually hated him, much like in the US and other countries.

My personal estimate of the number of Americans who viscerally hate Obama is right at 38%. Thats not a fringe. I am pretty sure that the majority of that group would support seeing him removed by force.

I can't speak to other countries but I have to call you out on a clearly wrong statement on the US.