[RD] Russia Invades Ukraine: War News Thread: Round 6

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If Putin decides that his 7,000 warheads alone are enough to reconstitute the Soviet empire
Why limit itself with the Soviet state? Why not go for the previous iteration of Muscowy empire with Poland and Finland included? Damn, why not go even further than that (as far as Lisbon, as their propaganda often says) since nukes are abundantly available. It's realpolitik, nothing else.
 
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We have no legal obligation to defend them via direct war.
I thought the realpolitik answer was that the U.S. is an unreliable diplomatic partner, so treaty obligations can go by the wayside. A bit of :mischief: here, but also not.

There is something of a realpolitik answer in this, and I’m going to go back to 2014 when I was criticized for saying that Russia’s fait accompli in Crimea was a reality that we would need to negotiate. Similarly, I thought Russia’s interests in propping up Assad were more valuable to them than it was to us, so my position on Syria was to stay out of it.

However, in the realpolitik dimension, there is a point at which the calculus must become one of assertive response rather than passive acceptance if we are to preserve the international order that we built after the defeat of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan.

Ukraine is not just an amalgam of Russian and Ukrainian speakers housed in random borders that were established after the communists’ capitulation, it is the principle, the real political principle, that we can not let aggressive powers challenge our interests in this way.

Hitler marched into Austria and Czechoslovakia because there was no deterrence, even though the national incomes and armies were greater than that of Germany in 1939. We and the British had the world’s largest fleets in 1941, but that did not stop the Japanese from bombing Pearl Harbor.

I just think we are at the point now where we have to say no.
 
Interesting shift of rhetorics - from pathetic and utterly incapable Russian military, to Russia must be stopped at all cost on their way to Lisbon.
By the way, Mongolia at some point asked to join USSR, was rejected. Somewhere in the 60-s IIRC.
 
I was pro-Assad from all alternatives, Russian stance seemed to be reasonable, in realpolitik they just needed the port. I am all for tribute paying or anything to avoid war.
But its very dangerous to make concessions to country which doesnt know where its borders and ethic boundaries are.
 
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I thought the realpolitik answer was that the U.S. is an unreliable diplomatic partner, so treaty obligations can go by the wayside. A bit of :mischief: here, but also not.

When America attempts to use diplomacy with her enemies she tends to be very unreliable. With her allies, well that's a different story, but she did not too long ago throw the Kurds under the bus. Of course the Turks were one of her "official" NATO allies, the Kurds not so much.

There is something of a realpolitik answer in this, and I’m going to go back to 2014 when I was criticized for saying that Russia’s fait accompli in Crimea was a reality that we would need to negotiate. Similarly, I thought Russia’s interests in propping up Assad were more valuable to them than it was to us, so my position on Syria was to stay out of it.

Ok, I mean I also felt that the United States was mostly helping ISIS rather than actually being decisive in containing them by dumping random weapons crates via parachute to the "moderate" rebels. Cause you know, it's not like those rebels didn't also have more extremist ties because Obama dubbed them MoDeRaTe.

However, in the realpolitik dimension, there is a point at which the calculus must become one of assertive response rather than passive acceptance if we are to preserve the international order that we built after the defeat of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan.

Ukraine is not just an amalgam of Russian and Ukrainian speakers housed in random borders that were established after the communists’ capitulation, it is the principle, the real political principle, that we can not let aggressive powers challenge our interests in this way.

Hitler marched into Austria and Czechoslovakia because there was no deterrence, even though the national incomes and armies were greater than that of Germany in 1939. We and the British had the world’s largest fleets in 1941, but that did not stop the Japanese from bombing Pearl Harbor.

I just think we are at the point now where we have to say no.

I'm so sick of this whole Nazi appeasement drivel argument. We are not obligated to fight directly on the behalf of any non-NATO nation period.

I hate to break it to you but the Balkans and Eastern Europe is kinda like the s't basket of deplorable countries. These people, let's just say the Poles as a Western Slavic people have somehow managed to create a more stable system then those further East and South. Seen the Serbian Film? Yeah that's what we're dealing with here.

It's not the same as the 1930s because Hitler was taking bites out of more stable Central European nations and when he attacked Poland there was a defense agreement in place between the French and British. The United States had no skin in the game at the time, we had no defense treaty with Poland so Japan brought us in instead. But before you get your panties in a twist remember it was the British and French as well as the USSR's fault for such appeasement, since it was strictly their domain to police at the time.

Also in the 1930s there were no nukes, geopolitical calculations have changed since then. And honestly if Hitler were informed on the principles of modern nuclear doctrine and knew that the French and British had ICBMs pointed toward him I doubt he would have invaded Poland. Despite what all the post WW2 gaffs would have you believe Adolf Hitler was quite an intelligent man, it's just he did certain things that make us wish on an emotional level that he wasn't.
 
Mongolia at some point asked to join USSR, was rejected. Somewhere in the 60-s IIRC.
Mysterious Russian soul(TM) must've been the cause. Because when in the 50-60s Hungary and Czechoslovakia attempted to escape from the Moscow's cattle farm, they were crushed by the tanks of their masters.
 
I'm so sick of this whole Nazi appeasement drivel argument. We are not obligated to fight directly on the behalf of any non-NATO nation period.
It’s not an emotional appeal, it’s an example of where deterrence failed. I’ll supply some further examples:

General Galtieri. He thought the British would not respond militarily to the invasion of the Falklands, and in within six months, the Argentine junta was gone.

Saddam Hussein. He thought that he could take Kuwait’s oil and there would be no reaction. In 1990, Iraq had the fourth-largest army in the world—in 1991, they had the second-largest army in Iraq.

Why did the USA and its allies supply arms to the contras, to UNITA, to the mujahidin? Why didn’t we supply arms to the Hungarians, the Czechs, and the Poles? Why did the USSR send pilots to fight in Korea or put advanced air defense systems in North Vietnam? We limited the scope of conflict because we, and they, were deterred.

Hitler is just a good example because the consequences of miscalculating on the side of caution can be disastrous.
 
So too did Zhivkov of Bulgaria, allegedly, and he was also rebuffed; the fact that the Soviet Union had already what it wanted was the reason either were denied entry.
Never heard about this, but might be true too.
May be the narrative about everexpanding land-hungry evil empire is a bit simplistic, isn't it?
 
It always is. But when the tool chosen is killing people, it simplifies the calculus of options available to that lowest common denominator. The remainder, is in scope and scale.

In a shallow simplistic further take - I'm somewhat amused that of course it would be the coup-supporting child-molesting-friendly wing of the Republican party that's super into negotiating with... well, probably not a coincidence.

Thus is the rhetoric of killing. Thus are its truths. Right? They suck. In the quiet, stinking, filthy ways.
 
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General Galtieri. He thought the British would not respond militarily to the invasion of the Falklands, and in within six months, the Argentine junta was gone.

The Falklands was Britain's own territory, they had every right to defend it. It's like the equivalent of if the Chinese invaded Hawaii.

Saddam Hussein. He thought that he could take Kuwait’s oil and there would be no reaction. In 1990, Iraq had the fourth-largest army in the world—in 1991, they had the second-largest army in Iraq.

Saddam had no nukes and had made himself a pariah of literally every other Arab nation. A massive coalition of the willing was formed to contest his so called "fourth largest army" just in case the United States couldn't take it all out with it's smaller expeditionary forces (spoiler alert they did, his army was trash). Plus common man he's Saddam, he was hardly intelligent in how he went about that.

Why did the USA and its allies supply arms to the contras, to UNITA, to the mujahidin?

Well we sure do like giving monkeys guns, a time honored American tradition. It would however come back to haunt us.

Why didn’t we supply arms to the Hungarians, the Czechs, and the Poles?

Nukes.

Why did the USSR send pilots to fight in Korea or put advanced air defense systems in North Vietnam? We limited the scope of conflict because we, and they, were deterred.

Oh I see the point your trying to make with the previous two sentences. Look, we were doing the same in South Vietnam and before that South Korea. An eye for an eye tit for tat, but in lands that both sides deemed to contain people lessor than them because back then people were pretty racist toward Asians and both the USA and USSR were ruled predominantly by white people with quite antiquated racial beliefs, so it never risked escalating too far. Both sides never really had any real skin in the game for either of those conflicts, merely to show off.
 
Well we sure do like giving monkeys guns
Whoa, Nelly.

You farm monkeys. You don't war with them. Even the hated enemy generally gets buried in trenches, eventually.
 
At least go with "apes."
 
We're way past that. The whole thread is.
 
Yes, but you also have to look at the bigger picture. Wars only end if there is a political means to an end. If you can't give your opponent a way out because of some moralistic sense of pride or superiority you're not going anywhere.
The only exception to this is total war, whereby the goal is to utterly destroy and annihilate your opponent. With Russia possessing thermonuclear weapons as well as having far too much territory to occupy this is impossible.
Therefore this war will not end through moral virtue signaling but rather hard, cold, and pragmatic realpolitik.

I already suggested Dividing Ukraine into two parts between Germany and Russia
Then signing a non-aggression pact
But for some reason people didnt like my final solution
 
Never heard about this, but might be true too.
May be the narrative about everexpanding land-hungry evil empire is a bit simplistic, isn't it?
Gustav Husak in 1943 offered Slovakia to became part of USSR. He was enprisoned in Stalin era and became the president of Czechoslovakia in 1975.
I dont think that it is telling anything against the land-hungry evil empire. It was the proof of communist loyalty (sometimes not enough). Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia and Mongolia were owned by USSR. Any representatives who stood against died in the Soviet gulag. Regards Mongolia check Peljidiin Genden, Anandyn Amar, Dansranbilegiin Dogsom, Darizavyn Losol etc...

Regards the current situation, the Yugoslavia also didnt plan invade USSR but became the main enemy just because Tito was not owned. There were hunts in all countries against titoists even when nobody knew what does it mean. You can exchange ukrainian nazis by titoists in Russian media to get an idea.
 
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