Russia's Future

[Kyriakos]

Well, I doubt many believe countries fight for morality.
Nor should they believe that, of course.

 

[Verbose]

Well, I doubt many believe countries fight for morality.
Nor should they believe that, of course.

And when attacked?

 

[GinandTonic]

Well, I doubt many believe countries fight for morality.
Nor should they believe that, of course.

Hence you dont understand the response to this crisis.

 

[Kyriakos]

Hence you dont understand the response to this crisis.

Like I said, no one is stopping you to enlist and go to Ukraine. A few UK people already did. I wonder why you are still here

 

[GinandTonic]

Like I said, no one is stopping you to enlist and go to Ukraine. A few UK people already did. I wonder why you are still here

What utter disingenuous nonsense. You're better than that and you know it.

"It is possible for nations to be motivated by morality" > "Why aren't you dying in a field?".

Contemptable and amoral. And that from someone who likes you.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Ukraine is Sudeten-land now? I don't think you yourself regard Russia as being in the position Germany was at that time. Besides, there are different power blocks now - China/India don't fall within either camp but may support Russia.
For myself, however, it should be enough to note that this country already has serious issues and enough reasons to maintain a half-serious army (actually an army similar in rank to Ukraine's, if one believes military sites), and those issues and reasons don't include risk of war with Russia.

Should Greece sacrifice itself to Turkey's ambitions to avoid a wider more dangerous escalation? Or would you prefer support from other EU nations to preserve your independence?

 

[Zardnaar]

Leonidas and his 300 died for an ideal. Kyrikos "Ukraine should chuck in the towel".

 

[r16]

actually he firmly believes everyone will look the other way when people see we are halfway serious . New Turkey is a joke . Yet even after a coup attempt that should have devastated its military potential it went into Syria , "scaring" Americans and Russians , killing Syrians , still killing seperatists , went to Africa and "defeated" France and more reasonably some Arabs , routed Armenians and it is causing heavy damage on the second largest military or whatever of the world . When it happens , all you will say will be some witty line about them being Orthodox Turks and us Muslim Greeks .

and yes , people should be easy about useful idiots . Lenin was not the only one to use such things .

 

[Zardnaar]

actually he firmly believes everyone will look the other way when people see we are halfway serious . New Turkey is a joke . Yet even after a coup attempt that should have devastated its military potential it went into Syria , "scaring" Americans and Russians , killing Syrians , still killing seperatists , went to Africa and "defeated" France and more reasonably some Arabs , routed Armenians and it is causing heavy damage on the second largest military or whatever of the world . When it happens , all you will say will be some witty line about them being Orthodox Turks and us Muslim Greeks .

and yes , people should be easy about useful idiots . Lenin was not the only one to use such things .

We would not!!! Turkey, Greece, Russia and Venezuela could do a summit though and exchange notes on how to run an economy.

Putin would probably steal them though.

 

[r16]

let me tell you one thing , some story ı keep telling very often ... The ClA guys who used to run Greece and made them to stage a coup in Cyprus so that a Civil War there could both destroy/kill the Greek Communists and defeat the Republic so that they could create a Kurdish Nation State while fitting the bloodlust of a certain US Airforce icon to a welcome satisfaction backfired so badly that you people are fighting Russia instead of finishing an easy job . You know , you don't know how eagerly that thing is expected ...

 

[Zardnaar]

let me tell you one thing , some story ı keep telling very often ... The ClA guys who used to run Greece and made them to stage a coup in Cyprus so that a Civil War there could both destroy/kill the Greek Communists and defeat the Republic so that they could create a Kurdish Nation State while fitting the bloodlust of a certain US Airforce icon to a welcome satisfaction backfired so badly that you people are fighting Russia instead of finishing an easy job . You know , you don't know how eagerly that thing is expected ...

I just assume the CIA/West gets blamed as a distraction for various crappy regimes running their countries into the ground.

Personally let those countries be if they have a crappy regime just cut their access to western markets and money don't fund them.No regime change via us military if they behave themselves inside their own borders.

Let them wallow in their own failure and corruption.

 

[r16]

yet more speechy speeches on how some rule the world and others must play along or go down . Yeah , very willing to go down but uhm , the rulers avoid it all with this most unreasonable fear of getting their trousers caught ? Any practical explanation for that ?

 

[Kyriakos]

Should Greece sacrifice itself to Turkey's ambitions to avoid a wider more dangerous escalation? Or would you prefer support from other EU nations to preserve your independence?

Guys, really, I don't get why you bring Ukraine into this. No one said Ukraine shouldn't fight, it is their country
As for Greece, don't worry, no one is going to help in a serious war, not for Greece, nor for any other country.
Btw, I hope people will refrain from making this about Greece, because I certainly don't feel like presenting a country here. There are polls about what people feel about this war and it is pretty ridiculous to expect a conscripted army to march to war against a side they don't see as an enemy (Russia). I obviously get why baltic people do see Russia as their enemy, and they are free to do as they please.

@GinandTonic it is just the threads that bring out the worst in all ^_^
I respect your position, I just don't share it (ethical war etc)

 

[Thorgalaeg]

yet more speechy speeches on how some rule the world and others must play along or go down . Yeah , very willing to go down but uhm , the rulers avoid it all with this most unreasonable fear of getting their trousers caught ? Any practical explanation for that ?

More like "don't expect me to trade with you if you work continuously against my interests" which is totally logical and legal and a long way away of "do what I say or I will bomb your dam country and kill you" .

I wonder why some people seem to think the whole world owes them something...

 

[r16]

true . We don't owe you anything .

 

[innonimatu]

I keep thinking things will go much faster and Putin will no make it to 2023. Not because the otherwise glomy economical prospects but because Russia is heading for a crushing military defeat in Ukraine. So he will have two options: going nuclear or going into a mass grave with the rest of his government. In both cases he will not make it to 2023.

I'm guessing you will have a lot of trouble digesting, by June, the failure of your "crushing military defeat" belief. Europeans intoxicated by a propaganda war of their own making also are hanging themselves economically, with no way to turn away from this crazy path in time. So thoroughly was the propaganda disseminated that governments are unable to correct course.

Russia has already defeated Ukraine, they're mopping up while keeping their own casualties and costs low. There are no relevant weapons supplies to Ukraine because there is no fuel supply to Ukraine. What transport still exists there exists because the russians still allow it. At any time they could blow p all the crossings of the major rivers. OR the power plants. The refineries have been disabled, the fuel depots blown. The same logistics issues that limited quick advances and victories by the russians also limit ukranian warfighting capabilities. Lack of both fuel and ammo makes them unable to fight any conventional war. None of the NATO countries can provide ammunition to the remaining ukranian weapons systems because they don't manufacture that ammunition. And even if there were supplies available, there's no transportation available. There is no point in "gifting tanks to Ukraine" if Ukraine cannot fuel them.

Any idea of Ukraine winning this war was and is a pipe dream. Logistics by itself makes it impossible. The olny reason this is going slowly is because Russia is fighting war on the cheap. By choose, not by need. I do wonder why. and none of the possible answers I see are good news for my own region. But I'm not in the mods of throwing pearls around - think through things yourself, just make sure you start with the actual facts, not wishful thinking derived from silly propaganda.

The sane thing to have done, from day one, was to limit damage by pushing for a quick diplomatic settlement. Instead things have been allowed to go on, too far now. We're in for defeat. Military defeat in Ukraine for NATO. Political defeat in having to deal with creating in many western europeans expectations like yours, and having them come crashing down. Economic defeat with rampart infatuation, hunger, unemployment. And finally political defeat with the inevitable protests, instability and government collapses. The russians are playing a long game and they were prepared for it. In contrast, I see no government inside the EU with any kind of rational plan to deal with any of this.

Macron squeezed through in France, lucky him who played the diplomat (smartly, unlike others, I'll grant him that) and who had the election sufficiently early in the economic blowback from the sanctions irrationality. No one else will have that lick from now on. Inflation is exploding, purchasing power can't accompany it, interest rates will bankrupt people, idiots are in charge and european politics are going to the crapper fast.

 

[Zardnaar]

I'm guessing you will have a lot of trouble digesting, by June, the failure of your "crushing military defeat" belief. Europeans intoxicated by a propaganda war of their own making also are hanging themselves economically, with no way to turn away from this crazy path in time. So thoroughly was the propaganda disseminated that governments are unable to correct course.

Russia has already defeated Ukraine, they're mopping up while keeping their own casualties and costs low. There are no relevant weapons supplies to Ukraine because there is no fuel supply to Ukraine. What transport still exists there exists because the russians still allow it. At any time they could blow p all the crossings of the major rivers. OR the power plants. The refineries have been disabled, the fuel depots blown. The same logistics issues that limited quick advances and victories by the russians also limit ukranian warfighting capabilities. Lack of both fuel and ammo makes them unable to fight any conventional war. None of the NATO countries can provide ammunition to the remaining ukranian weapons systems because they don't manufacture that ammunition. And even if there were supplies available, there's no transportation available. There is no point in "gifting tanks to Ukraine" if Ukraine cannot fuel them.

Any idea of Ukraine winning this war was and is a pipe dream. Logistics by itself makes it impossible. The olny reason this is going slowly is because Russia is fighting war on the cheap. By choose, not by need. I do wonder why. and none of the possible answers I see are good news for my own region. But I'm not in the mods of throwing pearls around - think through things yourself, just make sure you start with the actual facts, not wishful thinking derived from silly propaganda.

The sane thing to have done, from day one, was to limit damage by pushing for a quick diplomatic settlement. Instead things have been allowed to go on, too far now. We're in for defeat. Military defeat in Ukraine for NATO. Political defeat in having to deal with creating in many western europeans expectations like yours, and having them come crashing down. Economic defeat with rampart infatuation, hunger, unemployment. And finally political defeat with the inevitable protests, instability and government collapses. The russians are playing a long game and they were prepared for it. In contrast, I see no government inside the EU with any kind of rational plan to deal with any of this.

Macron squeezed through in France, lucky him who played the diplomat (smartly, unlike others, I'll grant him that) and who had the election sufficiently early in the economic blowback from the sanctions irrationality. No one else will have that lick from now on. Inflation is exploding, purchasing power can't accompany it, interest rates will bankrupt people, idiots are in charge and european politics are going to the crapper fast.

Your predictions are worth less than nothing. You were singing Le Pen's praises not that long ago.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Economic defeat with rampart infatuation, hunger, unemployment. And finally political defeat with the inevitable protests, instability and government collapses. The russians are playing a long game and they were prepared for it. In contrast, I see no government inside the EU with any kind of rational plan to deal with any of this.

And Europe will see this when? By June?

 

[Remorseless1]

The sane thing to do was to not have a started a war in the first place, no? Despite the nonsense spewing out of Russian state media, Ukraine was in no way a military threat to Russia.

Hope the Putinists realize mopping up will last for years. The US and the West are determined to support the Ukrainians for years, sapping Russian manpower and maintaining severe sanctions for years. Ask North Korea and Iran how they're doing under western sanctions.

Taking ground is one thing, holding it is another.

 

[innonimatu]

And Europe will see this when? By June?

All that? Surely not. By June it will be clear that this war is not ending in any russian defeat, rather the opposite. Real economic hardship, rather than mere expectations of it, in Europe will start being felt in Europe in the autumn and get increasingly worse for a couple of years at least. Serious political instability next year. Which has potential to make things much worse, depending in how it goes in each country.

Your predictions are worth less than nothing. You were singing Le Pen's praises not that long ago.

Read again. I was saying that her debate performance sank her, as her only asset against Macron was not seeming part of "the system". But she tried playing openly at being just that. So since the debate I was expecting Macron to win anyway.
In any case abstention was rather low, about that I had been (privately) wrong: I expected higher abstention- Which means Macron was likely to win anyway even if Le Pen has played her cards better in the debate. Perhaps her own private pooling indicated low abstention and hence the move to play "centrist". She's a career politicians, not some outsider.