Yamps: I've posted the micro for Argos a few times. The first was here. Now that a third Fish is revealed, the potential for food snowballing is even greater, but is constrained by
in Corinth.
SGOTM 21 - Plastic Ducks
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
in Corinth.Made a small adjustment of capital micro (work on 1F2H tile on T71 instead of 2F2C tile), so that capital only need to work on 1F3H tile for 1 turn to produce the 3rd WB for Argos. Corinth has to give up a gem tile for 2 turns to work on the Wheat tile, not much loss since capital could work on the Fur tile in these 2 turns while the Fur city is still at size1.
The empire on T78, have not considered the micro of 2 workers around capital. I'll leave those works for the next player.
The empire on T78, have not considered the micro of 2 workers around capital. I'll leave those works for the next player.
Spoiler :
Yamps
Deity
If we play it like you are suggesting, when do we build the first catapult?
If I'm losing in Argos, how much is it and what am I gaining elsewhere? Does it really matter for Argos? In my approach, both Sparta and Corinth would have larger pop with forest saved for Corinth. Corinth would go settler-> granary -> barracks. Sparta would have Odeon and barracks and catapult started at T80, ready to be whipped at T81. Athens would also follow in a few turns and 3 cities is enough to get started with troop building.
For a more objective comparison, benefits from earlier war should be taken into account, not only benefits from one city alone (Argos).
If I'm losing in Argos, how much is it and what am I gaining elsewhere? Does it really matter for Argos? In my approach, both Sparta and Corinth would have larger pop with forest saved for Corinth. Corinth would go settler-> granary -> barracks. Sparta would have Odeon and barracks and catapult started at T80, ready to be whipped at T81. Athens would also follow in a few turns and 3 cities is enough to get started with troop building.
For a more objective comparison, benefits from earlier war should be taken into account, not only benefits from one city alone (Argos).
@Team
Most of you have run tests and seen many arguments of various options. Please answer the questions here
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13695276&postcount=579
I'd try to finalize the test according to the consensus and put forward a PPP tonight.
@Yamps
We need at least 10~15 units to start the war, not only Catas, but also Iron, producing with a couple cities a few turns earlier would not speedup the war preparation, if you hurry to produce catas in a couple of cities and end up with waiting for Iron units, you not only lose development of own cities, but also delay the settlement of new cities that we could be settled.
Most of you have run tests and seen many arguments of various options. Please answer the questions here
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13695276&postcount=579
I'd try to finalize the test according to the consensus and put forward a PPP tonight.
@Yamps
We need at least 10~15 units to start the war, not only Catas, but also Iron, producing with a couple cities a few turns earlier would not speedup the war preparation, if you hurry to produce catas in a couple of cities and end up with waiting for Iron units, you not only lose development of own cities, but also delay the settlement of new cities that we could be settled.
@Duckweed
If Corinth flips the Worker/WB build order, does that screw things up? i.e.
The other thing I wonder about is how to produce the second Sparta Settler ASAP without sacrificing too much. We can gain 1F by whipping a Settler @ 1 turn > a Granary, and +2FPT any time we work the Lake > Gems.
The trade routes would provide +1
per turn to our four mainland cities. But if we establish foreign trade routes, especially with Izzy's continent, this won't be such an issue.
@Yamps
If you view Duckweed's latest test, which went to Construction, you'll see that we aren't producing Odeons or Catapults on T78, and won't for several turns. Moreover, the economic situation in Athens (Fur Forest), Knossos, and Argos are largely optimal.
Please believe me when I say that going to Construction now will not speed up any war. Cities are still developing and we do not have enough sources of . I built the Catapult stack in SGOTM 18, and the Axe rush stack in SGOTM 19, so I am not opposed to early wars when the situation is right.
This looks good.The empire on T78, have not considered the micro of 2 workers around capital. I'll leave those works for the next player.
Spoiler :
If Corinth flips the Worker/WB build order, does that screw things up? i.e.
Whip WB (improves most eastern Fish) ---> whip Worker ---> Granary
If post #576 is correct (I haven't tested), having all three Work Boats in place on T79 offers +7F compared to having all three Work Boats in place on T80, because the extra early food should let us regrow immediately after whipping the Lighthouse @ size 4.The other thing I wonder about is how to produce the second Sparta Settler ASAP without sacrificing too much. We can gain 1F by whipping a Settler @ 1 turn > a Granary, and +2FPT any time we work the Lake > Gems.
The trade routes would provide +1
per turn to our four mainland cities. But if we establish foreign trade routes, especially with Izzy's continent, this won't be such an issue.@Yamps
If you view Duckweed's latest test, which went to Construction, you'll see that we aren't producing Odeons or Catapults on T78, and won't for several turns. Moreover, the economic situation in Athens (Fur Forest), Knossos, and Argos are largely optimal.
Please believe me when I say that going to Construction now will not speed up any war. Cities are still developing and we do not have enough sources of
. I built the Catapult stack in SGOTM 18, and the Axe rush stack in SGOTM 19, so I am not opposed to early wars when the situation is right.@Duckweed
This looks good.
If Corinth flips the Worker/WB build order, does that screw things up? i.e.
Whip WB (improves most eastern Fish) ---> whip Worker ---> GranaryIf post #576 is correct (I haven't tested), having all three Work Boats in place on T79 offers +7F compared to having all three Work Boats in place on T80, because the extra early food should let us regrow immediately after whipping the Lighthouse @ size 4.
That would delay the granary in Corinth for 2 turns because of the delay of worker, which will subsequently delay the improvement of Corn site.
The other thing I wonder about is how to produce the second Sparta Settler ASAP without sacrificing too much. We can gain 1F by whipping a Settler @ 1 turn > a Granary, and +2FPT any time we work the Lake > Gems.
The trade routes would provide +1
Yep, Commerce could yield to growth and production in this stage. The micro in Sparta and other cities could be optimized with longer test. I ran the test to T78 mainly to show the timing of the Corn site with optimal timing of 2 forest chops into an instant granary, and the timing of 3rd WB from capital.
shakabrade
Praise Vivec!
All right, there are really a lot of issues in debation, let's get the vote going to solve them.
1. CoL or Construction after Masonry?
CoL.
2. Whip GLH?
Yes!
3. Settler or worker from Sparta?
Settler.
4. If settler, shall we whip like what Kaitzilla or Shakabrade did?
No whip I. Doshin has valid point about much later second settler.
5. What's the build in Corinth?
- Yamps: settler->granary
- Shakabrade: WB(1 turn slow)->whip worker->settler
- Duckweed: Whip worker->whip WB(in time to improve 2nd fish)->Granary
Whip worker and OF into WB, that's what I did. Then Granary, as I already mentioned. Your Corinth has to grow on +2F for too long since food bin is too empty. Or take Wheat by not working gems.
6. The location of Corn site? 1W or 1E?
Tough one but 1E. If game was shorter, I'd go for 1W. We might work some cottages or farms later since that city will be far from war front and won't need to whip as much.
Edit: Now I see that you do abandon gems in the test. I vote against that.
Early research shouldn't be slowed since we can't make up for it later due to 1 tech per turn restriction.
Try to run a few turns of test forward and you'll see what I mean. Without whipping the WB, you'll be 1 turn slower on the 2nd WB. Capital has to give up working on the Wheat in order to produce the 3rd WB as soon as possible. We only lose
All right, there are really a lot of issues in debation, let's get the vote going to solve them.
1. CoL or Construction after Masonry?
2. Whip GLH?
3. Settler or worker from Sparta?
4. If settler, shall we whip like what Kaitzilla or Shakabrade did?
5. What's the build in Corinth?
- Yamps: settler->granary
- Shakabrade: WB(1 turn slow)->whip worker->settler
- Duckweed: Whip worker->whip WB(in time to improve 2nd fish)->Granary
6. The location of Corn site? 1W or 1E?
1) CoL
2) Sure, whip it.
3) Settler in Sparta
4) Don't whip the settler, Shaka showing up at 2pop would be fatal to Sparta.
5) No opinion
6) 1E of corn please
All right, there are really a lot of issues in debation, let's get the vote going to solve them.
1. CoL or Construction after Masonry?
2. Whip GLH?
3. Settler or worker from Sparta?
4. If settler, shall we whip like what Kaitzilla or Shakabrade did?
5. What's the build in Corinth?
- Yamps: settler->granary
- Shakabrade: WB(1 turn slow)->whip worker->settler
- Duckweed: Whip worker->whip WB(in time to improve 2nd fish)->Granary
6. The location of Corn site? 1W or 1E?
1. CoL
2. We can wait to decide when the option appears.
3. Settler
4. No opinion
5. Long game? Granary.
6. Economy pls.
The consensus of the debating issues
1. CoL or Construction after Masonry?
Col: 5 votes. Construction: Yamps
2. Whip GLH?
Whip: 5 votes. No whip: Yamps
3. Settler or worker from Sparta?
Settler: 5 votes. Worker: Yamps
4. If settler, shall we whip like what Kaitzilla or Shakabrade did?
No whip: 4 votes Kossin: no Opinion
5. What's the build in Corinth?
Yamps: settler->granary
Shakabrade: WB(1 turn slow)->whip worker->settler
Duckweed: Whip worker->whip WB(in time to improve 2nd fish)->Granary
Duckweed build order: 3 votes from Doshin, kossin, and Duckweed
Yamps: 1 vote from Yamps
Shakabrade: 1 vote from Shakabrade
Kaitzilla: No opinion
6. The location of Corn site? 1W or 1E?
1W: 2 votes from Doshin and Duckweed
1E: 3 votes from Yamps, Shakabrade, and Kaitzilla
Kossin: unclear about your economy choice?
This is an issue for the next session, but 1E location favors the settler from Corinth or earlier settler from Sparta
Correct me if I misunderstood your preference.
1. CoL or Construction after Masonry?
Col: 5 votes. Construction: Yamps
2. Whip GLH?
Whip: 5 votes. No whip: Yamps
3. Settler or worker from Sparta?
Settler: 5 votes. Worker: Yamps
4. If settler, shall we whip like what Kaitzilla or Shakabrade did?
No whip: 4 votes Kossin: no Opinion
5. What's the build in Corinth?
Yamps: settler->granary
Shakabrade: WB(1 turn slow)->whip worker->settler
Duckweed: Whip worker->whip WB(in time to improve 2nd fish)->Granary
Duckweed build order: 3 votes from Doshin, kossin, and Duckweed
Yamps: 1 vote from Yamps
Shakabrade: 1 vote from Shakabrade
Kaitzilla: No opinion
6. The location of Corn site? 1W or 1E?
1W: 2 votes from Doshin and Duckweed
1E: 3 votes from Yamps, Shakabrade, and Kaitzilla
Kossin: unclear about your economy choice?
This is an issue for the next session, but 1E location favors the settler from Corinth or earlier settler from Sparta
Correct me if I misunderstood your preference.
PPP to T73
Tech: 2 turns of 0% slider, then 100% slider Masonry->CoL, followed by binary research. Will stop to revise if anything bad from Shaka.
Diplomacy: Trade away Fish if possible, will stop if anyone has Alpha.
Scouting -- As showed on the screenshot below.
The warrior in Dutch land will keep scouting west to find and monitor Shaka's SOD, In case that when we are safe, I'd send him back to reveal the north tiles of Dutch land to enable the foreign trade routes.
One warrior will scout the horse site
Scout will scout the tip and then fogbust
One warrior will scout the NE area
Scouting WB will keep going NE direction.
Cities and Workers micro -- Except a small adjustment of a working tile in capital,
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13695492&postcount=582
everything else is the same as the test here.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13693607&postcount=558
Let me know if you want to see the details.
Tech: 2 turns of 0% slider, then 100% slider Masonry->CoL, followed by binary research. Will stop to revise if anything bad from Shaka.
Diplomacy: Trade away Fish if possible, will stop if anyone has Alpha.
Scouting -- As showed on the screenshot below.
The warrior in Dutch land will keep scouting west to find and monitor Shaka's SOD, In case that when we are safe, I'd send him back to reveal the north tiles of Dutch land to enable the foreign trade routes.
One warrior will scout the horse site
Scout will scout the tip and then fogbust
One warrior will scout the NE area
Scouting WB will keep going NE direction.
Spoiler :
Cities and Workers micro -- Except a small adjustment of a working tile in capital,
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13695492&postcount=582
everything else is the same as the test here.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13693607&postcount=558
Let me know if you want to see the details.
Regarding the slider, keep it at 0% whenever Athens gives up the Fur (unless this will delay CoL).
Open borders with Shaka when we find Izzy's first city.
Selling Fish is fine, but if we discover Izzy's continent, maybe wait to see if we can trade for a luxury resource. We could even trade away the Wheat or Gems if necessary.
Good luck/have fun.
Open borders with Shaka when we find Izzy's first city.
Selling Fish is fine, but if we discover Izzy's continent, maybe wait to see if we can trade for a luxury resource. We could even trade away the Wheat or Gems if necessary.
Good luck/have fun.
6. The location of Corn site? 1W or 1E?
1W: 2 votes from Doshin and Duckweed
1E: 3 votes from Yamps, Shakabrade, and Kaitzilla
Kossin: unclear about your economy choice?
1E: river and less maintenance. Too bad for the few forests...
Unless we don't want to settle the Fish site in the future, otherwise
The difference of river tiles is 1 plain tile. The maintenance fee difference is 0.22 @ size1
But
have 1 less workable grassland tile and some water tiles for 2 cities
Less available forests for chop in the near future, especially chops for the 1st war in the near future.
Yamps
Deity
I was too busy and exhausted yesterday to check anything. I'll take a look later today.
I'm in a clear minority regarding Construction, but there really hasn't been an answer about the actual war timing in your approach.
I don't believe there will be an issue regarding iron. We could start with catapults at T80 and at the worst case, we could even go with archers + catas besides the obvious self researching IW or trading it.
You're proposing more settling, which I don't find better than going for Willem earlier.
I'm in a clear minority regarding Construction, but there really hasn't been an answer about the actual war timing in your approach.
I don't believe there will be an issue regarding iron. We could start with catapults at T80 and at the worst case, we could even go with archers + catas besides the obvious self researching IW or trading it.
You're proposing more settling, which I don't find better than going for Willem earlier.
As I said before, either you post a statistical comparison, or a longer game test like what you Doshin did in SGOTM18, you could convince the team if the result in your side.
Most of our reasons were based on past winning/losing experiences. Our team rarely made false judgement on war timing. Almost in every SGOTMs we chose the right time with the right units to war. Check how late we started the war in SGOTM16 and still beat the 2nd team by almost 10 turns. Another example is how late we started the Cuis war compared with other team in SGOTM19. A couple of other teams got Cui 10 turns before us. The key point was not how early you could start producing the military units, but how fast you could produce and how good is your empire to support the war non-stopping economically. Starting the war a few turns earlier lets you get a few AI's cities a few turns earlier, that's won't beat the economical gain from your own cities and more new cities.
Most of our reasons were based on past winning/losing experiences. Our team rarely made false judgement on war timing. Almost in every SGOTMs we chose the right time with the right units to war. Check how late we started the war in SGOTM16 and still beat the 2nd team by almost 10 turns. Another example is how late we started the Cuis war compared with other team in SGOTM19. A couple of other teams got Cui 10 turns before us. The key point was not how early you could start producing the military units, but how fast you could produce and how good is your empire to support the war non-stopping economically. Starting the war a few turns earlier lets you get a few AI's cities a few turns earlier, that's won't beat the economical gain from your own cities and more new cities.
Yamps
Deity
@Duckweed
Alright, I'm going to side with that. It would be very hard to mathematically prove anything either way and it basically comes down to my intuition that attacking earlier would be better. And intuition alone could be wrong, of course.
In this case, I'm also going to change my vote about the corn spot location. If we are to keep on settling, we'll also settle the nearby fish spot that will gain those grassland rivers. So let's go with the spot 1W then for more forest. It's also closer to Sparta so we'll get there one turn earlier.
Alright, I'm going to side with that. It would be very hard to mathematically prove anything either way and it basically comes down to my intuition that attacking earlier would be better. And intuition alone could be wrong, of course.
In this case, I'm also going to change my vote about the corn spot location. If we are to keep on settling, we'll also settle the nearby fish spot that will gain those grassland rivers. So let's go with the spot 1W then for more forest. It's also closer to Sparta so we'll get there one turn earlier.
Stop at T69 since there were some important events in these turns
T66. Shaka blows the war horn, his target is William, so I sent the warrior to scout the northeast of Dutch land. This villain also demanded our help with his war, so you can see that he is annoyed with us now.
T67. Our scouting WB met Mansa,
He has 5 cities already. I OB and focus EP on him. This is the main reason that I stopped. His existence provides a reason of not going for CoL immediately since we might have a chance to trade it. However he is the founder of Hindu, and probably does not have Writing yet as Mansa has not OB with Izzy. The question is "Do we want to switch to Construction". Yamps should be happy to see this. We have not invested beakers to CoL.
The land of Mansa and our NE part, only a sheep.
The dutch land and tiles around Horse, basically a city of resources.
T66. Shaka blows the war horn, his target is William, so I sent the warrior to scout the northeast of Dutch land. This villain also demanded our help with his war, so you can see that he is annoyed with us now.
Spoiler :
T67. Our scouting WB met Mansa,
He has 5 cities already. I OB and focus EP on him. This is the main reason that I stopped. His existence provides a reason of not going for CoL immediately since we might have a chance to trade it. However he is the founder of Hindu, and probably does not have Writing yet as Mansa has not OB with Izzy. The question is "Do we want to switch to Construction". Yamps should be happy to see this. We have not invested beakers to CoL.Spoiler :
The land of Mansa and our NE part, only a sheep.
Spoiler :
The dutch land and tiles around Horse, basically a city of resources.
Spoiler :
