[BTS] SGOTM 25 - Home Slices

[Kaitzilla]

Or does it? Can we manipulate it so that there is no resolution possible at 10t, and start a 1t resolution timer on T75 if we need to? I don't have enough experience with the AP to know this.

I'm not sure, not being an AP expert, but I thought that there are no votes if only one player has the AP religion.

Ah, you guys are right!
Testing indicates that it would work.

6. Assign city from X to Y:
Prerequisite: Civ X must be a Voting Member, but not Full Member, and Civ Y must be a Full Member. The two civs must not be at war. Civ Y must have a higher culture on the city plot (not the city itself) than Civ X does.
If passed the city is transferred intact with all buildings but no units.

I thought for sure Assign city vote would come up, but even though a 4 city colony owned Gold City with Taoism, no vote came up.
Our test game civ was a full member, the colony was a voting member thanks to Gold City having Taoism, we were not at war, and the colony had much less culture on the city plot than us due to 2 culture bombs.
Yet, the AP did not have a vote come up to give us back Gold City?

I guess, if giving back the city makes a civ no longer a member, then the vote is somehow invalid?

==========================

Anyway, I've had some bad experience with AP going wrong in the past.
Like a city being conquered and canceling the AP diplo win vote.

Who is to say that Kyoto won't get a Tao spread after we complete the T64 AP on say, turn 67?
They switch to Taoism, becoming a full member.
Then later, on T75 right as our spies are ready to do the last Legendary city push, a vote comes up and AP Win is not an option.

4. Open Borders
Prerequisite: The Resident or a Full Member currently does not have an Open Border treaty with one or more Full Members.
If passed, all Members now have Open Borders with each other.

I still think since AP is our best backup plan, we should play it safe and have its vote come up T77 for a T78 Win.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Our military goals should be to Vassalize Roosevelt and England, leaving each of them 1 Tao city containing no wonders.
So gift Roosevelt 5 cities, conquer 4, let him keep 1 Tao city, vassal the following turn.
Then gift England 5 cities, conquer 4, let him keep 1 Toa city, also vassal the following turn.
If for some crazy reason they refuse to Capitulate the following turn, we can pursue AP win.

Our Power Rating needs need to be ready in case we need to vassal a 3rd AI such as France if they drop a Settler overseas.
This will deal with the "We are doing fine on our own" issue once we have enough war success and have the Land/Population requirement met.

Right now on Turn 62, England is indeed the most powerful AI thanks to our efforts.

Spoiler :

The Power Ratio of 2.118 means England's Soldier Count can be calculated from our own 342,000 Soldiers.
342/2.118=161,473 Soldiers for England.
The Demographics say that the strongest AI has 162,000 Soldiers.
It is England!

Now, if we have to vassal England, America, and France in their current forms, how many Soldiers do we need to vassal England?
Total World Power can be estimated.
First, Rome has 342/3.226=106,000 Soldiers
Korea has 342/6.577=52,000 Soldiers
America+Ottomans+England+Rome+France+Korea combine to make an average of 99,666 Soldiers
(A+O+162,000+106,000+F+52,000)/6=99,666
A+O+F+162,000+106,000+52,000=597996
A+O+F=277996 Soldiers
America, Ottomans, and France have an average of 92,665 Soldiers between the 3 of them.

Then in the final calculation we have:
Home Slices: 342,000 Soldiers
England: 162,000 Soldiers
America: Around 93,000 Soldiers
France: Around 93,000 Soldiers

World Average Power is (342+162+93+93)/4= 172,500 Soldiers
England will not vassal until the World average power reaches 162,000*1.4=226,800

Then we work backwards to see how much power rating we need to drag the World Average Power Rating up to 226,800 Soldiers all by ourselves with 3 AI in the game.
(X+162+93+93)/4 = 226,800
X+162+93+93 = 907,200
X = 559,200 Soldiers

Ugh, France surviving with a Galleon Settler would be quite annoying!

We can also calculate how much power rating we need if only England and USA need to be vassaled.
(X+162+930)/3 = 226,800
X+162+93 = 680,400
X = 425,400 Soldiers

Much Nicer

We can directly push down England's power from 162,000 Soldiers by killing Redcoats and taking cities.
Since England will be the hardest to get to capitulate, once we have them the others will also fall in line.

 

[Kaitzilla]

@Kaitzilla finishing this weekend?

Finishing will not be possible, but I can guarantee good progress.

Can I start the Roman War now in the Real Game?
I'm gonna gift Berlin to Korea after I move the units out. (They teleport east and then north 1 square otherwise)
Then DOW Rome, teleporting our invasion stack 1E like WastinTime pointed out. (Testing indicated this definitely works)
I want to Strike the Archers in Antium with Bomber, capture Antium, seize the Settler from the Archer escort, and retake Hamburg.
Then upload the game again.

Once I know how many Workers we will have from Rome, it will make the next turnset easier to plan.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Checking in. Has the game started yet? Anyone have a test save I can play with??

Sorry for my absence, guys. Things haven't slowed down for me in RL. I'm in Spain this week for work but had some down time so I caught up on the last 60 posts or so. It looks like you're doing a great job, Kait.

I'm trying to figure out how I can contribute with the limited time I have. It doesn't sound like this would be a game to jump in and start playing turns without quite a bit of work to get caught up on the micro and the macro. Any ideas?

Hello Mitchum

I'm trying to update the Test Game right now.
We still need to figure out which cities are best for building more Wonders, and how to get Compass + Calendar if we don't get a Great Merchant Turn 65.

 

[WastinTime]

I still think since AP is our best backup plan, we should play it safe and have its vote come up T77 for a T78 Win.

Agree.
And what if Kyoto does get Tao and he switches like you said? Doesn't that hurt a lot? Do we need a contingency plan? or just wait til it happens first.

 

[WastinTime]

Finishing will not be possible, but I can guarantee good progress.

I just meant finishing your turnset, not the whole game.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Agree.
And what if Kyoto does get Tao and he switches like you said? Doesn't that hurt a lot? Do we need a contingency plan? or just wait til it happens first.

It should be ok.
The Colonies will not adopt Taoism until the 2nd turn they are alive, and most all of our missions will occur on the 1st turn they are alive.

Korea being Tao would only affect us on Turn 75 if we stopped making colonies and tried to use Korea's to finish.
Instead, we could make 1 more colony, and kill both the Colony and Korea on Turn 75.

 

[Kaitzilla]

I just meant finishing your turnset, not the whole game.

3 more turns?
Ya, it will be done this weekend for sure.

 

[WastinTime]

I want to Strike the Archers in Antium with Bomber, capture Antium, seize the Settler from the Archer escort, and retake Hamburg.

This seems like a good opportunity to skip the air support (two measly archers on flat land). There is also zero chance of any additional defenders now that we're hitting it this turn. Maybe bomb Rome defenses instead?

 

[Kaitzilla]

This seems like a good opportunity to skip the air support (two measly archers on flat land). There is also zero chance of any additional defenders now that we're hitting it this turn. Maybe bomb Rome defenses instead?

They are both City Garrison I Archers, and 1 of them is fortified.
If we tried without Bomber help, it would be 5.7 and 6.45 against our small Horse Archer team.

I'd rather Strike Antium now and guarantee no Horse Archer losses than bomb down Rome an extra 16%.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Paris is winning the race to 60% border defenses with 420 on Turn 62.
Istanbul was the leader on Turn 61 with 406

After Rome, we should start expecting religious capitals to have 60% defenses instead of 40%.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Okay by me if you play on.

I still think since AP is our best backup plan, we should play it safe and have its vote come up T77 for a T78 Win.

Backup in what sense? Do you think it's likely we won't have 420 points before that?

 

[Kaitzilla]

Okay by me if you play on.



Backup in what sense? Do you think it's likely we won't have 420 points before that?

I am 99% sure we can get everyone capitulated on T75 for a T76 win.

The only way this doesn't happen is if our power rating is too low, England has a colony, or we don't have enough points by T75.

In the case we did not have enough points, then T75 AP vote would be meaningless.
Would have to wait until T85.

In the case where England had a colony, AP would be the only way we could win.
T75AP vote would be great if we had enough points.
Or terrible if we did not.

In the case where our power rating was too low to capitulate England, T75AP vote would be great.


I feel the danger of us not having enough points by T75 to be the most likely danger.
All it would take is a string of Spy failures on the 1st Colony.
T75 AP vote least helps us address this issue.
But waiting 2 turns does fix it.

We have to get our points, then end the game.
Conquest can be done on any turn, so it is superior to AP.
I like AP vote T77 because I can't see anything preventing this win.

If the team loves T75 AP vote anyway, I will do it.
The risk of Kyoto spread AND not having enough points T75 is pretty small.
As long as nobody else gets a Tao spread, we could try for diplo win T75, T76, T77, T78..

 

[WastinTime]

i"m fine with the T77 backup vote (or whatever the backup is)
I expect us to pull off the conquest win without any trouble.
Green light!

 

[babybluepants]

Our military goals should be to Vassalize Roosevelt and England, leaving each of them 1 Tao city containing no wonders.
So gift Roosevelt 5 cities, conquer 4, let him keep 1 Tao city, vassal the following turn.
Then gift England 5 cities, conquer 4, let him keep 1 Toa city, also vassal the following turn.
If for some crazy reason they refuse to Capitulate the following turn, we can pursue AP win.

Note that they need to have >25% of the votes, so just any two cities might not be enough.
Edit: Also, someone needs to actually vote for us. So we would need to cap one of them, at least.
We should think about the 25% requirement in conjunction with our late wonder build plans. It would be good to avoid building a wonder in a high-pop Tao city. Guangzhou comes to mind - it doesn't have any wonders and can grow very fast.

 

[babybluepants]

Ah, you guys are right!
Testing indicates that it would work.

Did you test the stop war vote?

 

[Kaitzilla]

Here is the totally up to date Turn 62 Test Game

I think it was worth the time put into it.
Now we can test ideas much faster!

Everything is simulated correctly except injured units.
I could only make them full hp.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Did you test the stop war vote?

Ya, it didn't come up.

3. Force Peace on X
Prerequisite: Civ X must be a Full Member and at war with a Member.
If passed, a 10-turn unbreakable peace treaty is implemented among all Members.

As long as we aren't at war with someone that has Tao, it shouldn't come up.
A random Tao spread to Kyoto is a big reason I fear to set up the T75 AP vote unless I can be 100% certain we will get to 420 points by Turn 75.
I guess we can decide on T75 or T77 A.P. at the end of Turn 64 once we see how the 1st wave of Spies did.

If they died in droves on T63+T64, then delay A.P. to T77
If they did great, then go for A.P. vote T75.

 

[Kaitzilla]

I'm now comfortable enough to start the war with Rome and see how many Workers we get.
The Bomber strike alone reveals vision on all Roman cities.

We will want to move those units in Berlin before they teleport way back towards St.Pete. Unless we want the workers to get a jump back there. I suppose just let them all teleport and use the 2 military for recapture of Berlin and Hamburg.
Or should they be roading. I'm a bit out of the day-to-day micro.

Right, I've decided to teleport both Workers and both military units.
The Chariot can recapture Hamburg, the HA can heal, and the 2 Workers can further teleport east when Hamburg is gifted again.
They can help chop forests outside St. Petersburg's ring for even more Horse Archers.
The Roman Workers can do dangerous Frontline roading starting next turn.

Will do it real quick and then upload the game again.
Knowing all of Rome's defenders will be helpful.

I'll have the plan for the next 3 turns finalized by tonight hopefully.
I'm dragging behind schedule.

Test game indicates that the Redcoat actually can be lured out of York.
Also, York turns out to be valuable!
If we can use it as a war success gift city to Korea instead of Hamburg, that lets Hamburg complete its 2T Rice Farm, and get 2 chops, and can whip+chop out 2 more Horse Archers for the front.

Test game also indicates that the 3rd city gift of 4 is usually the capital. (rarely it is 4th of 4th city gift?)
Will try to make it Gold City.
It looks like it won't produce an Archer as long as we remember to whip Gold City down to Size 1 before giving it away.

 

[WastinTime]

Test game indicates that the Redcoat actually can be lured out of York.

That what I figured, but I'm still not sure what good it does or if it's the right thing to do. It means we have to either do amphib attacks on the lb or else if we unload, redcoat just moves back into the city. Basically removing its 25% fortify. The best case scenario is if the redcoat takes a lot of dmg (or dies?) attacking our axe.