Shame of Britain's Muslim schools

[Camikaze]

But you know what? Sometimes criticism of Islam is justified, even if the person's motives are suspect. Like all religions, it has many glaring faults and pointing out that this behavior is tolerated in an Islamic school is a totally valid thing to do.

Yeah, and that's what pretty much everyone in the thread has been doing. Some people have taken it further to make brazen generalisations about a larger group.

Do I have an anti-American imperialism agenda? Yeah, I do, along with many others. Does that mean that when I post something about the Americans immolating dozens of Afghanis in an air strike then Patroklos, MobBoss and Ecofarm are justified in dismissing the thread just because I am known to not like US foreign policy? No.

No, but if you linked this to Americans to describe the entire nation in some negative fashion than you could be dismissed on that basis.

Stop trying to draw parallels with other religions in this thread, because all it comes across as is apologism. This school is a scum hole, and that's what this thread is about. I posted a thread about Irish paedophile priests and nearly got knowcked down in the rush for the usual suspects to say "well, its not just Catholics, not just Irish, laymen do it too etc etc etc". It's tissue-thin apologism.

I think your motives are likely to counter some of the absolutely pathetic and ridiculous persecution of Muslims that goes on here, but the best way to do that isn't to try and equate every awful thing a Muslim does with something awful that's been done by a Christian, Jews, Hindu etc.

The whole point of this apparent 'apologism' coming up was to counter accusations made. If you think it should've stayed out of the thread, that's what you should be targeting. Did you see the post Arwon was responding to that essentially brought the issue up?

but I see the same thing every time anything to do with Islam is criticised: people at pains to point out that there is always some equivalent in some other religion.

That's unfortunately because in almost every thread where Islam comes up, there is some generalisation that needs to be set straight.

 

[Ekolite]

Ahaa I was tired and slightly drunk when I wrote that.

What I believe is that all muslim schools like that should be closed. I've editted the offending post. So should other schools like the one in the OP, but its my belief that if you were to close all such schools in England then most of them would be Muslim.

 

[Arwon]

Ralph: Most of the time people criticise Islamic things it's with an ulterior motive and a blind spot a mile wide. That requires a response, yo.

Eko: OK, fine, we're back to "bad things are bad" then. I agree, bad things are, indeed, bad. But really, let's go after the Exclusive Brethren, too. And some of the more stringent Christian schools.

Actually, I'm all in favour of making everyone learn the same hippy-dippy libertine values I personally espouse. That way harmony lies.

 

[Tee Kay]

How about banning Saudi funding and providing money for conventional conservative and liberal Islamic alternatives?

How many years worth of oil does Saudi Arabia has left? 50 years? 100 years?

 

[RedRalph]

But it happens in every thread where any aspect of Islam is criticised Camikaze, people rush to point out some example of a Christian or Jew doing something roughly equivalent. It happens every time.

 

[RedRalph]

Ralph: Most of the time people criticise Islamic things it's with an ulterior motive and a blind spot a mile wide. That requires a response, yo.

No, it doesn't. Why do you need to defend this religion? Why not just admit there are appalling aspects of it and some people's interpretation of it and leave it at that? If someone is idiotic enough to think the actions of a few are the same as the actions of 1.3 billion then they are too stupid to be convinced anyway.

 

[Camikaze]

But it happens in every thread where any aspect of Islam is criticised Camikaze, people rush to point out some example of a Christian or Jew doing something roughly equivalent. It happens every time.

Again, that's because there is something to respond to every time. I don't really see people pre-emptively defending bad stuff just because it comes from a Muslim organisation. I see people defending Muslims in general when someone makes some false generalisation. I fail to see how there is a problem with that at all.

The method by which this is done is directly tying Islam to traditional 'Western' religions, something that brings home the point of Muslims not actually being some sort of Big Evil Foreign Threat. It might get annoying in its repetition, but it's only repeated because it's effective in what it conveys.

 

[Tee Kay]

If someone is idiotic enough to think the actions of a few are the same as the actions of 1.3 billion then they are too stupid to be convinced anyway.

You'd be surprised how easily misleading generalizations like that can catch on.

 

[Arwon]

No, it doesn't. Why do you need to defend this religion? Why not just admit there are appalling aspects of it and some people's interpretation of it and leave it at that? If someone is idiotic enough to think the actions of a few are the same as the actions of 1.3 billion then they are too stupid to be convinced anyway.

Because it's not "a religion" it's a whole bunch of people who profess a religion. You know, individuals, who aren't really responsible for each other?

 

[RedRalph]

Again, that's because there is something to respond to every time. I don't really see people pre-emptively defending bad stuff just because it comes from a Muslim organisation. I see people defending Muslims in general when someone makes some false generalisation. I fail to see how there is a problem with that at all.

Why don't you rush to point out how normal most Chinese people are when someone criticises the CCP or how un-psychopathic most Christians are when someone criticises the WBC? you don't, because it isn't neccesary and it isn't here either.

Like I said, I think all of yer motives are honourable, but misguided.

 

[Arwon]

Because in both those cases people are usually aware of it. The same awareness is less apparent when someone goes "ooh look how screwed Islam is, they're ruining our country" in response to what happens in one bloody school.

 

[newfangle]

Because in both those cases people are usually aware of it. The same awareness is less apparent when someone goes "ooh look how screwed Islam is, they're ruining our country" in response to what happens in one bloody school.

If the tenants of Islam were contained to one school, there'd be many fewer people annoyed with it. Religious fundamentalism is a tumor, and soft moderates like you allow it to metastasize.

 

[Lone Wolf]

I can see what RRW is saying - I don't think that religious doctrines should be immune to criticism any more then any other ideology is. It's perfectly valid to wonder if a religion helps a negative factor X in a society to take roots.

However, the anti-religion crusaders tend to be annoying and prone to simplistic worldviews, arguments and twisting of history. I guess it's because mainstream religions are complex affairs that can't be pronounced "Good" or "Evil", and many of the aforementioned crusaders have some other ideological axes to grind (like xenophobia).

Personally, when I hear someone bash a religion, I immediately think of its good qualities, and when I hear someone praise a religion, its bad qualities immediately come to my mind.

 

[Arwon]

If the tenants of Islam were contained to one school, there'd be many fewer people annoyed with it. Religious fundamentalism is a tumor, and soft moderates like you allow it to metastasize.

That's absolute rubbish and, again, an absurd double standard under the cloak of Hitchens fanboyism to think either "this school = all Islam" or "this school = all Islamic schools". Close the school or change the rules so it cna't get money without being much more progressive, don't generalise to all Muslim schools.

If a significant fraction of Muslims were anything like the militant fundie caricature we'd have far bigger problems than a bit of angst in the Daily Mail. Luckily Wahabbism is an unpopular fringe sect even though the sect has extensive Saudi backing.

 

[Camikaze]

Why don't you rush to point out how normal most Chinese people are when someone criticises the CCP or how un-psychopathic most Christians are when someone criticises the WBC? you don't, because it isn't neccesary and it isn't here either.

Like I said, I think all of yer motives are honourable, but misguided.

Well if someone is making false generalisations about the Chinese people, and particularly about Christians (given I am one), then I am at pains to correct them. But the leap from 'the CCP is bad' to 'Chinese people are bad' is thankfully often not made, whereas the leap from 'this Islamic school is bad' to 'Islamic people are bad' is.

 

[Virote_Considon]

That's absolute rubbish and, again, an absurd double standard under the cloak of Hitchens fanboyism to think either "this school = all Islam" or "this school = all Islamic schools". Close the school or change the rules so it cna't get money without being much more progressive, don't generalise to all Muslim schools.

I'm happy to generalize to all non-state schools.

If a significant fraction of Muslims were anything like the militant fundie caricature we'd have far bigger problems than a bit of angst in the Daily Mail. Luckily Wahabbism is an unpopular fringe sect even though the sect has extensive Saudi backing.

You give Wahabbism too little credit. It matters not how many people ascribe to it; it is the most dominant and active threat to liberalism which exists at this moment. In fact, I would go so far as to say that it is the only threat. Adherents may be few and spread, but boy, are they spread. From Chechnya to Europe to throughout the world.

Their ideology to liberalism is what China is to America - no direct threat as of yet, but its potential (due to being the nearest) is massive. Thus, you need to look at how similar ideological threats were dealt with - was Fascism allowed to practice unhindered? Communism? Anarchism? They were all stamped out when needed!

The point isn't to decry all Muslims, its to decry the ever-growing influence of a particular Muslim ideology - an ideology which may not be growing significantly in numbers, but is certainly growing in influence. And this ideology hates what the West currently stands for as much as any other.

 

[NovaKart]

Just to get something straight, not all radical Muslims are Wahabbi and not all Wahabbi Muslims are terrorist supporters.

One thing that does separate Wahabbi Islam from other forms of Islam is that they are very orthodox in their beliefs, they are against worship of saints (yes some Muslims pray at the tombs of Islamic holy men), many traditional Muslim holidays like the Prophet's birthday and other practices that don't come directly from the Quran or Hadith.

Sometimes it can be difficult to separate radical Muslim influence that comes from Saudi Wahabbis and from other sources since people that would generally be considered Wahabbi often don't use the term Wahabbi to describe themselves. Still, I would say that you can't narrow down all radical Islam to this source, not even all radical Sunni Islam.

 

[Arwon]

Their ideology to liberalism is what China is to America - no direct threat as of yet, but its potential (due to being the nearest) is massive. Thus, you need to look at how similar ideological threats were dealt with - was Fascism allowed to practice unhindered? Communism? Anarchism? They were all stamped out when needed!

Please describe for me the "stamping out" of anarchism or communism in, say, the UK. Or even Fascism, really.

Just to get something straight, not all radical Muslims are Wahabbi and not all Wahabbi Muslims are terrorist supporters.

One thing that does separate Wahabbi Islam from other forms of Islam is that they are very orthodox in their beliefs, they are against worship of saints (yes some Muslims pray at the tombs of Islamic holy men), many traditional Muslim holidays like the Prophet's birthday and other practices that don't come directly from the Quran or Hadith.

Sometimes it can be difficult to separate radical Muslim influence that comes from Saudi Wahabbis and from other sources since people that would generally be considered Wahabbi often don't use the term Wahabbi to describe themselves. Still, I would say that you can't narrow down all radical Islam to this source, not even all radical Sunni Islam.

Among radicals, though, who's got the cash for running private schools in non Muslim majority countries though?

 

[NovaKart]

I never said that Wahabbi Muslims don't have a lot of influence but certain comments make it sound like Wahabbis are the only radical Muslims. Also, they're not a single organization and they don't even call themselves Wahabbi but Salafi.

 

[Arwon]

Oh, if that was the impression I was giving, it's not what I was intending - just talking about the influence Saudi education funding has in places where Islamic education gets insufficient local support (ie, much of the West and plenty of poor Muslim countries).