pre-release info Shawnee - Exploration Age Civilization Discussion

[Laurana Kanan]

Moderator Action: Multiple off-topic posts have been deleted. Please refrain from further similar deviations.

 

[Wabnosa]

I always loved the panther and the swan on the Eastern Shawnee of Oklahoma flag. The panther across the sky, is a comet. The swan is very defensive and aggressive when provoked, and graceful while doing it. Singing ones death song was from what I can tell done by everyone back then and still around today. In the way the swan sings its swan song.
I like the Absentee flag.
I like the fat 4 pointed star.
Colors red and black or white, buckskin and red or white.

 

[SeelingCat]

Returning to the names of the uniques, I've been consulting some dictionaries and have found maybe a couple bits of info.

Returning to this now that I've found some more sources!

• Helikhilenawewipe - probably not related to bow as first though; probably related to (hi-)lenawe, meaning "people; Indian people"; no dice on the prefix/suffix as of yet
• Hoceepkileni - 99% sure this is "medicine man"; Hoceepihki "medicine" + Hileni "Man"
• Kakawfe Pafkotaweta - no dice on this yet
• Kispoko Nena'to - Kispoko warrior
• Maleki Kintake - Kintake possibly related to Kentucky? Closest thing I've found to Maleki is Maale, meaning "plentiful" (plus plural suffix -ki?)
• Mawasakwe Skote - Maawashkaawe "council" + Skote "fire" - a council fire
• Miyaska Latoweki - not much luck here; possible connections to miyaa(l) "false" or miyaa "owl"?
• Nepekifaki - related to nepi "water"
• Nicaakiyakoolaakwe - no luck here
• Takesiyake Yepepoki - no dice here, maybe related to the word for north?
• Telwatiki - no luck here
• Wyehi Simekofi - probably not the meaning, but I did find Wiyehi "something"

 

[pokiehl]

Returning to this now that I've found some more sources!

• Helikhilenawewipe - probably not related to bow as first though; probably related to (hi-)lenawe, meaning "people; Indian people"; no dice on the prefix/suffix as of yet
• Hoceepkileni - 99% sure this is "medicine man"; Hoceepihki "medicine" + Hileni "Man"
• Kakawfe Pafkotaweta - no dice on this yet
• Kispoko Nena'to - Kispoko warrior
• Maleki Kintake - Kintake possibly related to Kentucky? Closest thing I've found to Maleki is Maale, meaning "plentiful" (plus plural suffix -ki?)
• Mawasakwe Skote - Maawashkaawe "council" + Skote "fire" - a council fire
• Miyaska Latoweki - not much luck here; possible connections to miyaa(l) "false" or miyaa "owl"?
• Nepekifaki - related to nepi "water"
• Nicaakiyakoolaakwe - no luck here
• Takesiyake Yepepoki - no dice here, maybe related to the word for north?
• Telwatiki - no luck here
• Wyehi Simekofi - probably not the meaning, but I did find Wiyehi "something"

Very nicely done. Cool research into a language that folks very rarely encounter and has comparatively little documentation.

 

[notNamed]

Returning to this now that I've found some more sources!

• Helikhilenawewipe - probably not related to bow as first though; probably related to (hi-)lenawe, meaning "people; Indian people"; no dice on the prefix/suffix as of yet
• Hoceepkileni - 99% sure this is "medicine man"; Hoceepihki "medicine" + Hileni "Man"
• Kakawfe Pafkotaweta - no dice on this yet
• Kispoko Nena'to - Kispoko warrior
• Maleki Kintake - Kintake possibly related to Kentucky? Closest thing I've found to Maleki is Maale, meaning "plentiful" (plus plural suffix -ki?)
• Mawasakwe Skote - Maawashkaawe "council" + Skote "fire" - a council fire
• Miyaska Latoweki - not much luck here; possible connections to miyaa(l) "false" or miyaa "owl"?
• Nepekifaki - related to nepi "water"
• Nicaakiyakoolaakwe - no luck here
• Takesiyake Yepepoki - no dice here, maybe related to the word for north?
• Telwatiki - no luck here
• Wyehi Simekofi - probably not the meaning, but I did find Wiyehi "something"

Can you add some sources for these for people interested?

Since I couldn't find a usable Shawnee dictionary that wasn't blocked in some form, I tried a bit with similar words in other Algonquian languages.
Telwatiki might possibly have some relations to digging, cellars, supplies, that sort of thing as wâti passes for a hole/dig and derived words like wâtihkê are used in such concepts for Cree.
Plus it aligns with the tier 1 mechanic of being able to go to war more often. It's a shot in the dark but as long as you have some grammar and dictionary at hand (or perhaps a Bible translation?), it could lead us somewhere.

 

[Ryansinbela]

Returning to this now that I've found some more sources!

• Helikhilenawewipe - probably not related to bow as first though; probably related to (hi-)lenawe, meaning "people; Indian people"; no dice on the prefix/suffix as of yet
• Hoceepkileni - 99% sure this is "medicine man"; Hoceepihki "medicine" + Hileni "Man"
• Kakawfe Pafkotaweta - no dice on this yet
• Kispoko Nena'to - Kispoko warrior
• Maleki Kintake - Kintake possibly related to Kentucky? Closest thing I've found to Maleki is Maale, meaning "plentiful" (plus plural suffix -ki?)
• Mawasakwe Skote - Maawashkaawe "council" + Skote "fire" - a council fire
• Miyaska Latoweki - not much luck here; possible connections to miyaa(l) "false" or miyaa "owl"?
• Nepekifaki - related to nepi "water"
• Nicaakiyakoolaakwe - no luck here
• Takesiyake Yepepoki - no dice here, maybe related to the word for north?
• Telwatiki - no luck here
• Wyehi Simekofi - probably not the meaning, but I did find Wiyehi "something"

Were did you find the term warrior from

 

[SeelingCat]

Sorry for the delay! The best source I've found so far is Shawnee stems and the Jacob P. Dunn Miami dictionary by C.F. Voegelin.

 

[Ryansinbela]

Alright, thanks for providing info

 

[Wabnosa]

I'm stating it for the record Shawnee exploration to Anishnabe modern (see my argument in Ideas section) is the best possible transition...or AIM (American Indian Movement).

 

[SeelingCat]

Returning to this now that I've found some more sources!

• Kakawfe Pafkotaweta - no dice on this yet
• Nicaakiyakoolaakwe - no luck here
• Takesiyake Yepepoki - no dice here, maybe related to the word for north?

Did some more digging in the Voegelin text and found some additional info/leads:

• Kakawfe is most likely Kaakawthe "cyclone"; seems to match the ability's effects; potentially a reference to the "Cyclone person" of Shawnee belief?
• Nicaakiyakoolaakwe - I think it's related to caaki "all"; and I think the ni- suffix means "I" (as in a verb conjugation) or "my"; the -we ending may also be a suffix. I wonder if this a quote/phrase from Tecumseh potentially? Something about his confederacy maybe? Have struggled to identify the other parts of the word however.
• Takesiyake Yepepoki - potentially related to takw- together? feeling mort certain of the second word being related to pepoo "north"

 

[Ryansinbela]

Did some more digging in the Voegelin text and found some additional info/leads:

• Kakawfe is most likely Kaakawthe "cyclone"; seems to match the ability's effects; potentially a reference to the "Cyclone person" of Shawnee belief?
• Nicaakiyakoolaakwe - I think it's related to caaki "all"; and I think the ni- suffix means "I" (as in a verb conjugation) or "my"; the -we ending may also be a suffix. I wonder if this a quote/phrase from Tecumseh potentially? Something about his confederacy maybe? Have struggled to identify the other parts of the word however.
• Takesiyake Yepepoki - potentially related to takw- together? feeling mort certain of the second word being related to pepoo "north"

Kakawfe Pafkotaweta Gives bonuses after environmental effects so it might be related

 

[CrackerJack45]

Not sure if this has been posted in another thread but, as of the Han being added to the Game Guide the Shawnee page has been updated to list their attributes as "Economic and Diplomatic" rather than "Economic and Political"

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Not sure if this has been posted in another thread but, as of the Han being added to the Game Guide the Shawnee page has been updated to list their attributes as "Economic and Diplomatic" rather than "Economic and Political"

It was speculated that "Political" was a mistake, or it was an early version of "Diplomatic", considering it wasn't seen as a trait in the gameplay footage.

 

[CrackerJack45]

It was speculated that "Political" was a mistake, or it was an early version of "Diplomatic", considering it wasn't seen as a trait in the gameplay footage.

This is what I assumed also but it has now officially been corrected

 

[FishFishFish]

I'm stating it for the record Shawnee exploration to Anishnabe modern (see my argument in Ideas section) is the best possible transition...or AIM (American Indian Movement).

It should of been the reverse. The Shawnee should be a modern Civ. The Civ represents Tecumesh's Confederacy which formed during the early 19th century (if the Mughals are modern, then the Shawnee can be modern too!). The Anishnabe should represent the Three Fires Confederacy and be their predecessor.

 

[TheGhostEnthusiast]

The odd placement of Shawnee has got me thinking about what the devs might be considering when choosing "when" each civ is available. Making room for more "historical" lines of succession is one that's been talked about already, but what about Age specific game mechanics? We don't know to what extent gameplay will differ between Ages, but if Firaxis might consider placing civs anachronistically to let them interact with relevant systems, I think Shawnee might already be an example. With Prophetstown as the capital and city state related civics, the civ is evidently meant to represent the time of Tecumseh's confederacy. A huge part of the forming of the confederacy was, as "Prophetstown" implies, a religious movement led by Tecumseh's brother. Therefore, if our Shawnee civ was (logically) placed in the Modern Age, it would miss out on the ability to interact with a mechanic incredibly relevant to its real world inspiration: religion. Thus, Firaxis gives us Exploration Shawnee with a unique missionary, opening a new and more concerning can of worms in the process.

 

[Voidwalkin]

in any case, I still don’t know if Shawnee to Haudenosaunee should be the progression, considering I don’t think there’s much evidence to really put the Haudenosaunee in modern besides the fact that the confederacy is still around.

I don't know if I would love that progression either. The Shawnee may have been among the Algonquin nations attacked by the Haudenosaunee during the very violent Beaver Wars period.

I don't think there's a very clear progression. Ideally, it'd be possible for Tecumseh to actually succeed in his goal, and found a modern era nation based on the alliances he put together. That would be alt-history, of course, but it is a pretty obvious endpoint.

If that's not on the table, another nation like the Lakota may be the best option.

 

[Krikkit1]

I don't know if I would love that progression either. The Shawnee may have been among the Algonquin nations attacked by the Haudenosaunee during the very violent Beaver Wars period.

I don't think there's a very clear progression. Ideally, it'd be possible for Tecumseh to actually succeed in his goal, and found a modern era nation based on the alliances he put together. That would be alt-history, of course, but it is a pretty obvious endpoint.

If that's not on the table, another nation like the Lakota may be the best option.

I see that working 3 possible ways in Civ 7
1. as you mentioned Lakota/ other native group
2. The Shawnee keep (or Customize) their civ name and then the pick the civ whose uniques fit the way they want their civ to develop. (America and Modern Native should both be unlocked… maybe they unlocked Mughals or Buganda or Meijii as well… but they get to keep calling it Shawnee if they choose)
3. America is unlocked, but at least it is America with Shawnee tradition policies instead of Roman/Norman tradition policies.

2 is what I would prefer… keep/choose the name and have the modern unique

 

[Voidwalkin]

I see that working 3 possible ways in Civ 7
1. as you mentioned Lakota/ other native group
2. The Shawnee keep (or Customize) their civ name and then the pick the civ whose uniques fit the way they want their civ to develop. (America and Modern Native should both be unlocked… maybe they unlocked Mughals or Buganda or Meijii as well… but they get to keep calling it Shawnee if they choose)
3. America is unlocked, but at least it is America with Shawnee tradition policies instead of Roman/Norman tradition policies.

2 is what I would prefer… keep/choose the name and have the modern unique

2 is the most sensible to my mind.

It has the most narrative potential for the player. If the player wants to tell their own story, create their own history, 2 is the pathway to that.

 

[Wabnosa]

Yes but there's no potential future where Anishnabe isn't half of that alliance.