Shawnee - Exploration Age Civilization Discussion

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

It's been confirmed to be Man-at-Arms in last night's PAX presentation.

Show me. Well of Souls did not update the name.

mm and this 'men at arms' mm. in this rule it became 'generic infantry' (since 'melee' and 'anticavalry' silly distinctions no longer exists in this version, personally i'd prefer this unit to converge with gunpowder tech but it still plealses me anyway.)

is there any official video that confirmed the unit name and even unit icon.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

and about this infantry name. what should it be? 'Men At Arms?' 'Swordsmen'
View attachment 705945View attachment 705947

Man at Arms on the left: wearing articulated plate armor, carrying a combination of swords and halberds. Only minor addition that could be made would be a couple with two handed Great Swords, another very common contemporary weapon for them.

Men on the right in armor could very well be, Norman unique graphics or a unique unit: the 'kite' shield they are carrying is associated with Norman knights from the early 11th century on, and unlike the men-at-arms, some of whom are wearing fully-enclosed Great Helm-type helmets, all of these men are wearing the earlier 'advanced spangenhelm' with nasel protection - again, typical of the 10th - 11th century Norman types.

 

[Zaarin]

Show me. Well of Souls did not update the name.

I don't have a time stamp, but this image was introduced as a man-at-arms.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

^As per previous game rules. there were Melee and Anticavalry. and also that unit graphic representation is that it carries Bec de Corbin warhammer. (or great weapons).
and they tend to be Aristocrats.

This made them 'Brettonian Men At Arms' to me. which 'to me' it could be pre-pikemen 'Anticavalry' unit. Unit descriotion said that they are armed commonners.

what about 'commonn infantry' choices of the 5th - 13th Century? before the first 'Pikemen' came to be. what are differences between Ancient Spearmen, Classical Spearmen and Medieval ones? And units like this 'Brettonian Men At Arms' were indeed commonners? are these men's real unit name 'billmen'? is it possible to hold this weapon on one hand and shield on the other? and are these men better than spearmen of the previous era?

 

[AriochIV]

No names were "confirmed" at PAX last night... they spat out all kinds of things that we know are wrong.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

No names were "confirmed" at PAX last night... they spat out all kinds of things that we know are wrong.

Through this Twitch broadcast and 'whispering' sound quality. (I have to turn off fans in my room just to listen to what Devs have to say). he did indeed spit the name 'Men At Arms'.
if the unit name is indeed confirmed, this could make them more like Brettonian MAA in Warhammer Fantasy (now Warhammer Old World) which I posted earlier, this because 'Infantry' is now 'Infantry class' and no 'Melee' and 'Anticavalry' distinctions anymore. (which is good, though I prefer gunpowder convergences actually)

 

[AriochIV]

Through this Twitch broadcast and 'whispering' sound quality. (I have to turn off fans in my room just to listen to what Devs have to say). he did indeed spit the name 'Men At Arms'.
if the unit name is indeed confirmed, this could make them more like Brettonian MAA in Warhammer Fantasy (now Warhammer Old World) which I posted earlier, this because 'Infantry' is now 'Infantry class' and no 'Melee' and 'Anticavalry' distinctions anymore. (which is good, though I prefer gunpowder convergences actually)

They also had a slide in which they showed the Legion and Medjay and said they were among variations of the "phalanx." They were being very loose with the terminology they used; I don't think we can rely on it. They're artists, not game designers.

edit: "Man-at-arms" is a perfectly logical name for Exploration-era basic infantry, so it may well be right... but it comes from an unreliable narrator.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Man at Arms on the left: wearing articulated plate armor, carrying a combination of swords and halberds. Only minor addition that could be made would be a couple with two handed Great Swords, another very common contemporary weapon for them.

Men on the right in armor could very well be, Norman unique graphics or a unique unit: the 'kite' shield they are carrying is associated with Norman knights from the early 11th century on, and unlike the men-at-arms, some of whom are wearing fully-enclosed Great Helm-type helmets, all of these men are wearing the earlier 'advanced spangenhelm' with nasel protection - again, typical of the 10th - 11th century Norman types.

And halberds were also 10th-11th Century polearms as well? and saw use by common Fyrd footsloggers before Swiss Pike Revolutions came to be in 14th Century?

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

And halberds were also 10th-11th Century polearms as well? and saw use by common Fyrd footsloggers before Swiss Pike Revolutions came to be in 14th Century?

No. First mention of a 'hallembart' or Halberd is from 1279 - late in the 13th century when it was a particularly Swiss weapon of the early cantonal forces.

Aside from the ubiquitous Spear, the most common melee weapons for foot were long-handled axes - which were in use by Scandinavian forces for at least 300 years before the halberd developed. Much less common were Great Swords used with two hands, which, because they made shields nearly impossible to use, were pretty much confined to men wearing full plate armor - so, dismounted knights or aristocrats on foot who could afford that expensive stuff.

Because in the period from about 900 to 1350 nobody actually equipped a large force entirely with Great Swords or Axes, the general term Men-at-Arms that Civ VI used is very appropriate: that covers every armored man on foot carrying something heavier than a sword or spear, without worrying how many of them are carrying axes, maces, morning stars, great swords, or hand grenades.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

No...hand grenades.

Antioch confirmed?

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

No. First mention of a 'hallembart' or Halberd is from 1279 - late in the 13th century when it was a particularly Swiss weapon of the early cantonal forces.

Aside from the ubiquitous Spear, the most common melee weapons for foot were long-handled axes - which were in use by Scandinavian forces for at least 300 years before the halberd developed. Much less common were Great Swords used with two hands, which, because they made shields nearly impossible to use, were pretty much confined to men wearing full plate armor - so, dismounted knights or aristocrats on foot who could afford that expensive stuff.

Because in the period from about 900 to 1350 nobody actually equipped a large force entirely with Great Swords or Axes, the general term Men-at-Arms that Civ VI used is very appropriate: that covers every armored man on foot carrying something heavier than a sword or spear, without worrying how many of them are carrying axes, maces, morning stars, great swords, or hand grenades.

And Spears of 900-1350 AD can have alternate heads that resemble halberds or other heads that also good both at swinging and thrusting attacks? one that looks like what Brettonian footsloggers carry?

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

And Spears of 900-1350 AD can have alternate heads that resemble halberds or other heads that also good both at swinging and thrusting attacks? one that looks like what Brettonian footsloggers carry?

There are some Unique weapons, which is how they should be treated, because they were not in general use: both the Anglo-Saxon and French peasant militias, the most numerous infantry of the period, were required to show up with simple spears and shields.

The Flemish town militia that massacred a bunch of knights at Courtrai in 1302 were largely pikemen with rear ranks armed with 'godendags' - a short, heavy can opener on a heavy wooden shaft (that's not a joke: that's exactly what they look like!) that proved to be fatally good at chopping an armored knight to pieces after the pikemen had shafted his horse out from under him. Nobody else, though, seems to have used godendags: if ever added to the game, they would be a Flemish Unique.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

There are some Unique weapons, which is how they should be treated, because they were not in general use: both the Anglo-Saxon and French peasant militias, the most numerous infantry of the period, were required to show up with simple spears and shields.

And no armor of any kind ?
what made them (fyrds) better than Early tight formation spearmen of 2000 BC?
and they were organized in the same formation with poleaxemen?

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

What got added to the end of the spear was based on who you were fighting. Guys on horseback, add a hook to pull them out of their saddle. Heavy metal armour, add a heavy cleaver so you can smash through that armour (after they fell on the ground, you still used the spear as a spear while they were standing).

Note that I'm not saying they literally swapped gear before each fight, just that the evolution of the equipment used from basic spears to more specialized weapons was a result of adapting to the enemies these weapons were used against. Foot soldiers themselves still fought pretty much like they always did, regardless of whether their weapon was called a spear, bill, halberd, whatever.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

What got added to the end of the spear was based on who you were fighting. Guys on horseback, add a hook to pull them out of their saddle. Heavy metal armour, add a heavy cleaver so you can smash through that armour (after they fell on the ground, you still used the spear as a spear while they were standing).

Note that I'm not saying they literally swapped gear before each fight, just that the evolution of the equipment used from basic spears to more specialized weapons was a result of adapting to the enemies these weapons were used against. Foot soldiers themselves still fought pretty much like they always did, regardless of whether their weapon was called a spear, bill, halberd, whatever.

And all of these spear evolutions were of Late Middle Ages? ... beginning at 13th Century at the earliest? evolution that ultimately 'Pikemen' (actually billmen or halberdiers to begin with) replaced OG Spearmen?

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

And all of these spear evolutions were of Late Middle Ages? ... beginning at 13th Century at the earliest? evolution that ultimately 'Pikemen' (actually billmen or halberdiers to begin with) replaced OG Spearmen?

Pikeman versus Spearmen was just a cultural and training thing. Philip reorganized the Macedonian army to carry longer spears (= pikes) because the Greek hoplites traditionally fought 8 ranks deep and he wanted to crush them by training his soldiers to fight 16-ranks deep. Worked a charm against the Greeks, was a waste against the armies Alexander fought (didn't need the extra depth against them), and was a total disaster against the Romans who wouldn't let themselves get into a shoving match. Other than that weird example, pre-gunpowder pikes were typically only used by poor nations who couldn't equip proper men-at-arms or field armoured cavalry and needed a cheaper way to fight. Post-gunpowder wealthier nations started using them to give their early gunpowder troops more time to reload (pike-and-shot). Eventually firearms got faster and the pike was abandoned (and replaced not by spears, but bayonets that functioned like spears).

 

[Wabnosa]

The Serpent mound has 7 bends, the 7 phases of man. Best illustrated in William Shakespeare's the 7 phases of man. The egg is you.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

 

[Voidwalkin]

So, talking about medieval units generally, I'd be delighted if you could research a civic that gives you access to the WAGON FORT unit. This would only be researchable if at war with a nation with X amount of horse units.

Probably used pretty effectively on the Eurasian steppe by the Goths, who are expected to be in. Ancient historians don't confirm that directly, but do show they used similar tactics against Rome, not long after their steppe presence seems to have collapsed.

Also used famously by the Hussites and Americans against equestrian forces. Russians seem to have developed a similar tactic eventually against horse-based nomads.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

So, talking about medieval units generally, I'd be delighted if you could research a civic that gives you access to the WAGON FORT unit. This would only be researchable if at war with a nation with X amount of horse units.

Probably used pretty effectively on the Eurasian steppe by the Goths, who are expected to be in. Ancient historians don't confirm that directly, but do show they used similar tactics against Rome, not long after their steppe presence seems to have collapsed.

Also used famously by the Hussites and Americans against equestrian forces. Russians seem to have developed a similar tactic eventually against horse-based nomads.

The problem here is that special units or constructions, no matter how many different people used them, tend to be reserved in-game for one specific Civ or Leader.

Rome, Persia, and many other European groups built long, elaborate defensive walls, but China is going to get the only Great or Long Wall.

Goths, Russia, and numerous other steppe peoples used wagon forts, wagenburgs, gulai gorod, but the Hussites turned them into Renaissance Tanks with firearms, so if such a thing appears in the game, it will most likely be a Unique for Exploration Age Bohemia.